[Discussion:] How does physical surveillance affect you?

PierceTheBubble@lemmy.ml · 23 hours

I wish to have a discussion about how physical surveillance affects you in your day-to-day life; apart from Flock and (Ring) doorbell cameras (which I believe are pretty established at this point). This in context with your country of residence, and whether in a rural or densely populated area (as (“smart”) cities typically “progress” at a faster rate).

I live in a medium-sized village, in a low-density area of The Netherlands. I rarely travel long distances and visit cities, but despite that, I’m increasingly confronted with surveillance infrastructure. Maybe it’s because I know too much about it, and I no longer have the option to be unaware of it, but it eats at me on a daily basis.

Most notable is surveillance surrounding highways, especially: the increased density of radar sensors (which, on their own, might not reveal much about individuals; but could reveal one’s progression when paired to ALPR data, for instance), “focusflitsers” (a (mobile) array of thermal-imaging cameras: peering through a vehicle’s windshield, supposedly patrolling phone-usage during driving, but also featuring an ALPR (which also captures the driver, besides the license plate of course), and may also be used to record speed-indications (to identify “verkeershufters”: roughly translating to “traffic jerks”)), dedicated (mobile or stationary) ALPR cameras (supposedly only for detecting warranted vehicles or “hits”: unless published in the police’s “cameraplan”), “trajectcontroles” (average speed monitoring: essentially two sets of ALPRs, calculating the average time between readings), and (now) digital speed cameras (typically at intersections: instead of adapting road design…). But I’m glad I trust my government to only store “hits” and those in violation… /s

Other than that, I’ve spotted ALPRs (alongside an increasing number of PTZ cameras) at gas stations and above infrastructure (like bridges), but also built within boom gates before parking areas or recycling centers (behind a little square of darkened glass: in the base of the gate); and in, and surrounding retail areas (especially supermarkets) the number of cameras have risen (including the cameras at the self-checkout lanes: staring customers straight in the face; supposedly to discourage theft, but considering the “pay by face” concept, I fear it’s in preparation thereof). Buses, structurally driving through my street, also have (exterior) camera side-mirrors, and therefore frequently capture me. And finally the eyesore that is public-facing home-surveillance systems (despite legally not allowed to, but of course not actively being enforced: as the government would shoot itself in the foot if it did).

That was my little rant, please feel free to leave yours below in the comments; I’m somewhat desperate to hear it. I’m especially interested in stories from Denmark: as even my mom (despite of the “I’ve got nothing to hide” type) noticed “average speed monitoring” cameras all throughout the country, and “speed cameras” being at the entrance of villages (which I believe you aren’t allowed to be notified about in navigation programs: which is also insane to me), when she was there on a holiday. Please be very critical of every camera you’re confronted with, including those that appear to have been there for your entire life. It’s safe to assume every camera (including old “analog” cameras: through encoders) feed back into modern, digital surveillance platforms: which allow the footage to be actively monitored by AI (often to potentially trigger an alert, which an operator could respond to), possibly retained for an extended period of time (especially when considered evidence, it may be stored long-term: on a centralized server and/or cloud storage), and is shared effortlessly over the internet (instead of requiring physical transfer).

prunerye@slrpnk.net · 4 hours

I’m somewhere in the U.S. Our local politicians suck. I want to relocate. I supported someone last election cycle who was opposed to flock cameras, but they’ve completely fallen in lockstep with the established authoritarians since taking office. So I have been trying to avoid flock cameras on my route to work. But every time I find a minor detour, a new camera pops up. And even then, many of those detours are through residential neighborhoods, where every third person ~~is a collaborator~~ has a ring camera. My current route has me circling around the entire town before slipping back in on the other side. My commute has gone from ~20 minutes to ~40 minutes each way, which is just barely within my tolerance before I throw in the towel. There are several businesses I won’t even go to anymore, either because every possible route is surveilled, or because the business owners actively work against my interests (e.g. Whole Foods), which is actually good, since I find myself rabidly supporting local businesses, just as I should have been doing all along.

PierceTheBubble@lemmy.ml · 31 minutes

A lot of ALPRs are well hidden here, and not uniformly recognizable (other than: being a fixed box-type camera, angled to capture the license plate (mostly the front: as to be able to capture the driver as well), and typically having an array of IR LEDs in or around the camera-body: lighting up the license plate). But as of recently, the national police has installed a mobile ALPR unit on my return-trip, and I’ve found myself in somewhat a similar situation to yours. Thankfully, they aren’t typically placed within residential areas (at least not outside of cities, which often do have pedestrianized areas or environmental zones, only permitted vehicles are allowed to enter); but I’m sure they’ll find a creative excuse for it in the near future.

I’ve tried taking a detour once, but noticed cameras above a bridge, that tick most of the boxes for being an ALPR, so it seemed to have proved fruitless (despite requiring me to pass through pedestrianized areas: slowing me down significantly). Cameras appear to be placed with care, seemingly using waterways as perimeters: forcing vehicles to drive over a bridge, underneath an aqueduct, or through a tunnel. Besides the initially mentioned ALPRs at gas stations (as you’re forced to fuel up periodically), and parking areas or other endpoints (as you’re forced to park your vehicle somewhere). It’s honestly quite clever, especially when you can potentially narrow down activity using consumer-grade or business surveillance systems.

Fleppensteyn@sh.itjust.works · 10 hours

I’m in the Netherlands right now. You may have a different perspective if you’re a car owner, but I really noticed I’m not being spied on as much. I believe it’s not really allowed for a private person to film a public street neither, and I simply don’t see any cameras.

I live in Prague. When I go for a walk there, there’s hundreds of cameras following me. It’s like every home has at least one camera and they’re not just filming their own property. It feels uncomfortable: you never know who’s watching or what’s done with the footage.

PierceTheBubble@lemmy.ml · 1 hour

Surveillance surrounding car infrastructure is the most notable currently, but every larger public transportation hub has cameras all over too, together with on-board cameras in pubic transit vehicles, which are monitored in real time (despite moving around constantly). Perhaps you could give me a generalized description of your whereabouts and your activity, so I have a little bit more context on your surroundings. And yes, like I mentioned, it’s technically not allowed to have private cameras facing the public space, but without enforcement, you might as well not have it (or actually incentivizes people to hide them).

I’m quite interested in your experience in Prague, and would love to hear more about it. From your description it seems cameras in Prague are very apparent, which I consider to be a good thing. Whereas in The Netherlands surveillance systems are often installed to be unobtrusive; including those installed by authorities or businesses (which are typically recording the store’s entrance; and as a “by-product” the public space; and dome-style cameras are increasingly placed in public retail areas too: mounted (typically in groups) on poles, or to exterior of buildings).

Fleppensteyn@sh.itjust.works · 43 minutes

In Prague the line between private and public space seems blurred. Like, a footpath ends and the only way to continue is to walk over what appears to belong to a private business, of course full of cameras all over. I’m a bit further from the center, with a lot of rich people in big homes. They all have huge fences and walls around their gardens, often with cameras on top, so they can still spy on what happens outside their walls. Sometimes they’re so high up, you could think they want to know what happens in the entire street. Prague is one of the safest cities ever, so I really wonder how much of this is security and how much is curiosity. I mean, if you want to catch a burglar, you hang the camera down low so you can see their face.

Of course the city has traffic cameras and there’s police surveillance cameras in the center too, but at least you know what they’re for. The fact that any random person or business can film you is more worrying imo.

In NL, I’m staying in the North. I walk a lot. Instead of cameras, there are many curious people staring out of their windows :)

FineCoatMummy@sh.itjust.works · 21 hours

That was my little rant, please feel free to leave yours below in the comments; I’m somewhat desperate to hear it.

I’m in the US. Lots here is commercial. Cameras are all over in most stores. Everything bigger than mom & pop tier and even some of those. Long ago, that was kind of okay. They were closed circuit. The video went to a literal video tape to be overwritten in 1-3 days. Now? It’s unavoidable mass surveilance coupled to AI and cloud based analytics. The bigger chains run sophisticated facial recognition and AI behavior analysis.

Is that just for anti-theft? Oh no! These systems are used to analyze customer behavior. “Modern vision technologies are turning store video footage into powerful marketing insights”. Are you staring at a product, or looking away? Did you stop and pause near a display? Do you appear interested, or distracted? Did you pick up a product and return it to the shelf? Or place it in your cart? Did you read the label first? What route did you take through the store? These are all literally what modern video customer analytics do.

“This is where modern video analytics shines: it allows stores to map the entire in-store customer journey, from the moment someone enters to the moment they make a purchase (or leave without one). More advanced models add pose estimation, which looks at body posture and hand movement.”

It’s like somebody told Orwell 1984 was MUCH too mild.

Oh, did you want to opt out? Sure! You can. All you got to do is stop eating food!

but it eats at me on a daily basis.

Totally with you, sir, ma’am or other. I try to be an upstanding person. I try to help those around me. To be kind to others. To support my community and my neighbors. I just don’t want to live in a fucking constantly monitored world without a lick of privacy left. Where every action I have ever taken is recorded, analyzed, used against me. I believe this erodes democratic societies. These data streams are inevitably abused by tyranical ones. It’s a cancer on our societies. It harms all of us.

PierceTheBubble@lemmy.ml · 41 minutes

Same over here, with local chains increasingly forced to shut their doors (primarily as a result of the COVID pandemic, and the various developments ever since). And I completely agree, for most people it’s physically an unnoticeable change, but the change from: local, short-term, manual systems, to digitally transferable, long term, and automated ones, makes all the difference.

I’m quite confident most large chains were somewhat forced to have modern, GDPR-compliant systems in place (like Genetec for instance): undoubtedly allowing for integration of such analytics tools. And apart from that, they’ve had trackers in their carts (hidden in the locking-chain, or wheel-break assemblies) for as long as I can remember, and likely track user-location through app-use, or dedicated scanners too (for scanning products before you place them inside your cart); so I’m quite positive they utilize surveillance systems for that too.

Oh, did you want to opt out? Sure! You can. All you got to do is stop eating food!

I would just love to see those, that claim to be human, which are knowingly in support of these systems, try to justify the ethical ramifications in that statement alone. Which is “just” restricted to grocery shopping for now, but if the current trend continues, you’ll effectively become a prisoner to your own home. And quite rapidly so, if Europol’s ambitions to protect citizens from hypothetical adversary (kamikaze) drones, by use of drone swarms, atmospheric satellites and microphone meshes, becomes reality.

It’s an insane timeline we’re living in, and it’s so easy to give up all faith; but perhaps that is exactly what they want us to do. For us to feel powerless, and believing we are incapable of making a relevant change. I share the same ambitions as you, and I believe most human beings do naturally; but it’s becoming increasingly difficult when you have principles to stick by. I’ve already experienced this by transitioning away from big-tech platforms, and I would absolutely hate this translating into the physical world.

Em Adespoton@lemmy.ca · 20 hours

Interesting thing here… Walmart has moved to all-digital pricing labels in their aisles. They also use behavioural monitoring video. You can see where THAT is going.

OhVenus_Baby@lemmy.ml · 22 hours

All sorts of new tower cameras popping up rapidly in my area. They look errily similar to a phone tower but much smaller. Single turret style rotational camera on top of a black tower.

PierceTheBubble@lemmy.ml · 35 minutes

Interesting, in what country is this? And is it in specific areas (like retail for example), or implemented more broadly?

Cherry@piefed.social · 21 hours

The car thing bothers me. I have purposely chose an old non smart car, but given I have a license plate i am still monitored. I am seeing a lot just randomly on roadsides and I live kinda regional.

As for out in public, I have been considering a really light mouth mask, glasses and a hat. I thought I was crazy…I really thought i was turning into an irrational paranoid person.

Can’t shop online as I cant stand online shopping and algorithms anymore, plus i prefer to shop local.

Its like a trap.

RheumatoidArthritis@mander.xyz · 21 hours

I had to stop paying attention to physical surveillance because at one point I was unable to normally function without constant anxiety. The cameras are terrifying and so are cashless-only payments for public transport, parking, highways.

I like how the British have a tradition of destroying cameras in public spaces, but I’m too much of a coward to do the same where I live.

Peffse@lemmy.world · 22 hours

Your title has it a little bit backwards. It doesn’t affect you, until it does. That’s why privacy is so difficult. People are naturally reactive. Their phone number gets leaked, they get spam calls, they suddenly care who has their phone number.

But a license plate capture? There is no immediate affect. If the driver was given a monetary charge for every single license plate capture, there would be rioting in the streets and so many laws would be written and repealed… but there isn’t. So people don’t care because it doesn’t affect them.

I tried explaining this to my parents, and they got the concept in general, but again they are naturally reactive in their habits. They won’t discuss banking details in front of their Alexa microphone, but will happily install a driving tracker in their car at the behest of their insurance agent. When their insurance went up because of excess braking (they have those BS short yellow lights to help the red-light cameras) then suddenly they cared that they were being tracked. The surveillance didn’t affect them, until it did.

It’s so easy for people to just not think about it, or assume it won’t happen to them, because that’s the easiest method to cope with the shrinking amount of privacy we get.

I know of no way to champion privacy. No call to arms about an offense to rally behind. It’s a slow erosion that people don’t immediately notice, until it finally affects them.

FineCoatMummy@sh.itjust.works · 3 hours

Well said.

I once heard someone sum it up like,

“Everyone has something to hide. You just don’t know what that is, until it’s too late.”