Would have swapped 8 and vista. Vista was awefull. 8 was very special but 8.1 was actually good… but I was one of the few wierdos with an windows phone, so I liked the design.
NT/2000 always gets left out of these, I ran 2000 on an old PC for years past XP and Vista even. But all it was doing was running a vinyl and laser cutter.
They forgot 95 and ME as well.
ME would just be a brick wall.
And I would happily go back to using 2000 if I could. I held out all the way up to about 2012, at which point the number of games that wouldn’t run out of the box got to an untenable amount. :(
W2K was the shizzle
Win95 and Win2K forgotten again.
And millennium edition. Everyone forgets ME…god I wish I could. I was stuck with it for years
Oh crud. Did that even have a different kernel version?
Still can’t get over them making a big deal about 10 being the last one ever.
Windows 7. Best ever. Miss those days.
No no, we’re not doing this. We’re not pretending Vista wasn’t absolute dog shit.
Vista will always have a special place in my heart. I learned so much from Vista, like 'Oh, wdym I can’t go back to XP?" “This is a torrent, and this is an ISO.” “This is how you install an OS.” “Wdym they’re stopping support for XP?” and “This is what Ubuntu is.”
Bro vista was such garbage my father, the kinda guy who helps salesmen sell you extra features (believes new = quality/posterity), asked me if it was possible to go back to XP after a week of Vista.
It’s not like vista didn’t work, it just took 800 years to open any application, and longer to open two at once. He just wanted to play Diablo 2 bro lol
Diablo 2 Fuck yes.
My dad was the first person I know to beat Diablo 1. So my brother, our friends and I all consider him to be the cannon wanderer, with his sons and friends as the cast of D2
Vista was horrible. 8 was actually not that bad I barely remember 7 existing
But XP and 98 were the best ones
Oh man, 7 were the glory days. Gates came back to save the company.
i refused to update my home PC from 7. that’s a good box.
It works though because compared to XP, I’d pick XP every time.
Win 7 was definitely the pinnacle of Windows.
With that out of the way, I want to say that I am one of the very few that actually liked Windows 8. Especially on touch devices it worked flawlessly. I was upset when they removed the swipe gestures in Windows 10, like alternating between two apps. On Desktop it could have used a “Windows 7” mode.
Obligatory: Windows 11 is the worst so far. The level of disrespect this software shows towards the user is next level. And this downwards spiral seems to pick up the pace.
Also: Linux is awesome! All who are still hoping that Windows will again respect you one day: just get out now. The more people move to Linux, the better it will be supported.
Edit:
https://lemmy.zip/post/51119369
I rest my case.
I do kinda dig the Vision of Windows 8, y’know? Huge focus on Convergence, the unified design language of Metro, Windows Phone’s slick design…
Problem is they didn’t stick the landing at all, threw everything good in the trash with 10, set the trash can on fire with 11.Call me crazy but I do think Metro was a much more cohesive design motif than the Fluent that Microsoft slapped on right at the end of 10 and still haven’t decided how to handle on 11.
The biggest issue with Linux is the culture. I get that longtime users get and understand how to use it. They understand the commands. They know what -r and -n do.
I still look at my microwave daily to remember what the buttons do. There’s only 6 buttons and a dial. Although, 7 buttons. I just remembered the dial is also a button. It’s the start button.
Point is, I’m not going to learn terminal. I’m going to point the thing. Then I’m going to drag the thing. And I’m going to double click the thing.
I’ve attempted to learn terminal since 2014. I have a 0% success rate doing anything. Even copy/pasting other peoples commands. I always get an error, and I don’t understand the error. So I google the error, and then I don’t understand the explaination.
The way I have always explained it is, the OS is like a car. And terminal is how mechanics diagnose and fix the car. I tried changing my oil once, and blew up the car.
If you haven’t checked it out here, the culture is actually super helpful.
Also, look up the “man” command. Everything you need to know about every command is already built into your OS, you just have to access the “man file” for it.
Thanks to distros like Bazzite there really isn’t a need to learn the terminal.
Like at all? You don’t ever need a command to install/update drivers, repos, packages, software in general, change settings deep in the OS, fix hardware issues, read logs, create accounts, …
Because all those things you can do with a GUI in Windows. Even the registry is just a folder structure.
I use cli to update my Bazzite, but I think there is a UI for it somewhere…
So the advantage of GUIs over CLIs is discoverability, right? But the processes for reading logs or fixing hardware issues in Windows are not really discoverable, you still have to search the net and learn, so what’s the difference? That the keyboard is scary?
I think most of these complaints are just borne of unfamiliarity.
But to answer your question, as a Bazzite user: definitely “I don’t know”. I’ve been using linux for years, it’s natural to me to just open the terminal for many things, therefore I’m not sure whether there are roadblocks to a 100% mouse usage, but to be honest, if all you do is use the browser, office suite and games, I’d say that yes, your need to resort to the terminal is almost zero.
Don’t forget accessibility. Proper GUIs are accessible, they convey function and meaning through form. People constantly forget that.
Can you clarify?
Imagine a graph vs just the raw data. Which one is easier to pull the information from and comprehend? Our brains are purpose built to rapidly digest and comprehend a constant influx of visual data and ways to convert raw output into easy to comprehend visualizations dramatically increase a general user’s ability to interface with a system and the data that it generates. The dashboard of your car is a GUI, for example.
Also, there’s the humble button. A single graphic combined with a single mouse button that can be used to perform a near infinite number of actions. It’s a translation layer that allows you to perform actions preset by the company who designed the thing so that a user doesn’t have to already be familiar with how it runs in order to accomplish everyday tasks. I could type “@self -cast ‘light attack’ -target ‘Malenia, Blade of Miquella’” over and over again, but why would I when I can just spam click the right shoulder button on my controller until I die a very quick death?
The issue that Linux users run into (and why Linux has never reached any real traction in the global computer user base) is that they’re usually power users who already use a terminal or are well versed in similar systems. They don’t necessarily need a way to translate data to or from the terminal because they’ve been using it long enough that it feels simple, like a physicist wondering why cars measure the fuel tank with a dial gauge rather than a number showing the newtons of potential energy left in the gas tank. It’s a meaningless number to the average person, who just wants to know whether or not they have gas in the tank and maybe the distance that will let them travel before the tank runs out. You could calculate the latter using the potential energy in the tank, but the average person isn’t going to know that formula and be able to bust it out at any given time, so there’s a GUI in the car that does it for you.
TLDR Yes
You are asking for things most people don’t know how to handle on windows let alone Linux
- install/update drivers/package/apps etc. Yes the discover app runs updates for every on the system
- Change settings deep in the os: Yes, kde has an extensive settings app, kde monitor show you all the logs, kde settings allows you to create more user accounts.
- Because Bazzite is an atomic distro changing things in the Linux version of the Windows registry is not possible, (unless you’re a developer this is a good thing).
- Thanks to apps like Bottles you can run exe’s too
All with a GUI
The only family of distros I knew that could do all those things was OpenSuse thanks to YaST. Unfortunately they just sunset that tool without installing the new alternative “Cockpit” by default now, sooo… yeah. A lot of the things you mentioned can be done via GUI like account management, software and such, but by far not everything. The only distro which got most of those covered I can think of would be Linux Mint, there the CLI can be treated as more of a fallback solution or for those who want to use it.
Honestly this is a great argument and a huge gripe I have with people installing Linux Mint on other peoples computers, to upgrade LM you need to know how to follow terminal instructions. Although they advise to completely reinstall lm on your pc every time Ubuntu ends support (5years).
I’ve been on Mint for like two years and have not opened the terminal yet. You do not have to be a developer or even a power user to run Linux. It’s just another operating system.
It’s not a culture thing. You’d have the same issues in Windows if there was a problem. Plenty snarky and dismissive answers. Some people just want an appliance and that’s okay.
The biggest issue is that people end up running on poorly or non supported hardware. Buy a system from a company that designs with Linux in mind. System 76 Tuxedo etc. 90% of the issues are gone, poof. The final bit is dependence on or inability to leave a piece of software. There are options for most things on Linux. But not everything, and not always as you’re familiar with. If that’s a deal breaker, it’s a dealbreaker. And that’s too bad but understandable. No shade.
They know what -r and -n do
No we don’t magically know that. We know that we have to look it up in the manual to know that.
(Only tangentially related, but) To be fair, most microwaves are needlessly complex and/or have terrible user interface. I stand by all any microwave needs is one or two knobs, and that’s it. One for time of course, and another for power selection if desired.
I always hate using new microwaves at work break rooms or such because somehow they are all different and I feel like a caveman trying to figure them out every time.
Did you delete /etc? (friendly, sympathetic, Gnuification of Win jokes))
I can’t tell you what -r and -n do, because those are option flags. They mean different things depending on the command you’re running.
Imagine you’re going to zip a file. That is, put a file in a compressed archive. You’ll probably right click on the file, on the menu that pops up you’ll click Compress…, and then WinZip pops up with text boxes to type in the name of the zip file, it probably defaults to name_of_file_you_right_clicked.zip but you can change it, maybe some check boxes for different options like if you want to password protect the archive, etc.
In a command line interface, the first thing you type is the command you’re going to run, then usually flags (which are like check boxes) or options (which are like text fields or dropdowns, you need to type in additional information after options) and then the name of an input file, and then the name of an output file. The terminal has a built-in manual, you can read about a particular command’s options by typing
man [command]Don’t know what command you need? The
aproposcommand will search the manual for keywords. Say you want to use the command line to convert some image files from one format to another, but don’t know what command can do that. If you typeapropos -a image format convertit will search the entire manual for entries, and this will probably return the commands convert, magick, and magick-script among others. Those are commands from the ImageMagick suite. Note the -a. In this case, it stands for and, it will cause apropos to only return commands whose descriptions match all of the keywords you type in. If you don’t put that -a, and only typeapropos image format convertyou’ll get a much longer list of commands that include at least one of those keywords. Apropos, of course, has a manual page, which you can read with the commandman apropos.Let me really bake your noodle now: The terminal is a programming environment. Bash is a programming language. You can create variables, use if, for and while statements, do arithmetic, etc. You can use a text editor to save your programs as files, traditionally with a .sh extension, to run them later. This lets you automate…basically anything. Moving files around, converting files from one format to another, using programs like ImageMagick, ffmpeg, or several others to edit photos, videos audio clips, whatever. For publishing pictures to my blog, I’ve got a script that takes a photo, reduces it in size by half, adds a watermark, and saves the result to a special folder. And by using a .desktop file, I added that script to the right click menu, so it’s an option like Open, Open With… etc. So I run that script from the GUI.
There’s a reason most Linux distros come with an easy way to get to the terminal, usually a launcher on the panel or desktop. It’s because it is a powerful end-user tool.
Because of all your explanation, Terminal should never, ever be touch by the average user. The historical reliance on terminal is the reason that Linux adoption rates have been low.
Linux is a far better system to use for most home users that windows or Mac but terminal is beyond the capabilities of 97% of people.
I have a 11 year old low-end laptop running Mint. All I did was max out the RAM and pop in a SATA SSD. It’s stable, easy to use, and fast… until I have to hit terminal. Then it’s hours of looking up commands online, trying to figure out how to get something done that should have an easy GUI. I’m not a programmer by any means. I’m just cheap and don’t feel like tossing out perfectly functional hardware. So I push through it until I get it working.
Yes most of the 3% of people that use the Linux can mostly use terminal easily. For the 97% of people who are not using Linux, terminal is way beyond their capabilities.
terminal is beyond the capabilities of 97% of people.
No the hell it isn’t and I’ll prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt: I learned how to use the Linux terminal. I absolutely do not belong to any elite top three percent of the population. Neither do the middle schoolers using Raspberry Pis to learn computer literacy and programming.
At its core, the Linux terminal (and ANY computer command line interface, to include Microsoft Powershell) is used by typing the name of the program you want to run, and the computer runs it. On your Mint computer, open the terminal and type
firefox. I bet a Firefox window opens. You have now used the terminal. Let’s try adding an option to that command. Typefirefox --search "kitty cat"This will open a Firefox window and perform a search for “kitty cat” in the browser’s default search engine. This is beyond the capabilities of almost all humans?Yeah, no. That’s learned helplessness talking. Helplessness you’ve been taught by big, greedy corporations who don’t want you to own your own machinery because they make money owning it for you. Grow up, and learn how to own the tools you own like an adult.
Linux is not for everyone. If you don’t like it, don’t use it. The terminal is used so much because it’s often the quickest way of doing things - instructions in WIndows are like “click on that icon, scroll down to this and choose that, then select that tab…” but with a terminal it’s like “copy and paste this into a terminal”. It’s a powerful and useful tool. There are distros like Ubuntu which try to avoid doing terminally stuff, but it’s just so useful it’s difficult not to use it.
“The biggest problem of Linux is its culture” immediately confirmed.
- The terminal isn’t the quickest for everyone. It’s merely the one with the most concise input pattern
- “copy and paste it into a terminal” literally means “trust me blindly” when said to anyone but Linux enthusiasts or professionals. Which can have disastruous consequences if the command is old, for the wrong system, malformed or something else.
- the reason it’s difficult to bot use the terminal is due to a lack of configuration GUIs, or lack of mention that they exist. The amount of times people get told to manipulate their /etc/fstab instead of using the safe and very well accessible GUIs most DEs provide is flabbergastingly high.
The original reply was mostly correct. The problem is the culture. Too many Linux fans and devs either don’t understand or don’t give a shit about accessibility, and when criticized for that immediately build the impenetrable wall of “it’s free so eat what we give you or screw off”.
I don’t really know what else to say. Linux is what it is. It isn’t perfect, but then again what is? Some people like it, some people don’t. No one is forcing anyone to use it, so use it or ignore it. It will always need more effort on the part of the user to get going with it, but some people find this rewarding. Some don’t, in which case it’s not for them. Accessibility is a real problem, and one which people are working on, but there is no end game with Linux - no inherent need to be used and loved by everyone. It is already far better than it used to be in terms of accessability and it will only get better, but in the meantime, it’s not for everyone.
No one is forcing anyone to use it, so use it or ignore it.
That’s a little bit naive to say in todays’ IT landscape. Everyone who wishes to keep their privacy and personal safety - which quite frankly should be everyone - only has the option to run some Linux or BSD for their personal computing.
It will always need more effort on the part of the user to get going with it
That’s not true, thanks to hardware vendors as well as lots and lots of work of many people. The culture is still a problem though, as it effectively gatekeeps certain settings like Bootloader (“no normal user should ever have to change those”) or Service Management (“No normal user is supposed to touch those anyway”) behind an enormous skill level most people should not have to reach instead of a GUI people can navigate and understand. Not to mention that many seriously treat CLI commands as universal, something that repeatedly breaks systems of users who’re then rightfully pissed off.
there is no end game with Linux - no inherent need to be used and loved by everyone.
Again, if there were accessible alternatives that respect and protect the user that would be true, however there are not. The “endgame” (bad word for it) should be to finally reach accessibility-parity with Windows so everyone can actually use it.
I get what you want to say, but the circumstances we’re in don’t support your opinion on these things. Arguing like this perpetuates the more often than not rather unwelcoming (as in elitist) nature in the community.
Yes, I do see your point. I think part of the problem is that old farts like myself started with it 3 decades ago, when it really was only for the ultra-nerds. It really was something only enthusiasts would ever consider using, and totally unsuitable for “normal” people. The change into something that can be used by everyone has been slow, but relentless. At some point it will be something that everyone can use, but I really don’t think it’s there yet. Every year as accessibility improves it moves into the reach of more people, but at the moment you do still need to invest time in converting to it from Windows.
Which brings me to another point - Linux is not a Free version of Windows. A lot of people seem to think that it should be like Windows, but gnarly old nerds like me like it precisely because it is very different from Windows. This is both its weakness and its strength. I like it because there is less hand-holding than with Windows, but most people probably don’t want to use an OS that you can essentially brick with one command on the command line. To me it’s power, but to most (normal) people it’s danger. There has to be a trade-off between complete control of your PC to the point where you can destroy it, and your PC telling you what you can and can’t do to the extent that Windows does.
I think at some point there will be a distribution that manages to get a balance of freedom and hand-holding that a majority of people find accceptable, but at the moment you do have to put effort and time into not only learning new things, but changing the way you see your PC. If someone complains that it isn’t easy enough, the only solution at present is for them to not use it. Is it a good situation? No, but that’s the way it is.
Just put Linux mint cinnamon on my laptop a few days ago. It was stupid easy and now my laptop is running fantastic.
Windows ME
I don’t get why everyone’s so hostile to Windows Me. It was a perfectly good operating system for its time. It certainly didn’t crash on me any more than 98 did before it, or XP did after it. And it had some genuine improvements grandfathered in from Win2000.
That said, I’m now a Linux user, so my opinions are invalid /j
You are in the minority with your experience. Either you lucked out on ME or you had especially bad luck with XP.
Brand name PCs were being sold in 2000 with ME installed, that fresh out of the box would hang just trying to load the applications that were shipped with it.
Windows ME had the same fixed 64KB user resources and 64KB GDI resources memory limits as Windows 95 and Windows 98 for system resource allocation regardless of how much actual RAM you had. Since ME was more resource-intensive than the previous versions, you could run out of these resource allocations while still having very much free RAM much faster.
The end-result was the computer becoming unusable even though you had resources available that the OS could have otherwise used. Certain inefficient applications like I believe Quicken could snarf up all of the system resources so you had to restart with everything you could disabled to run that one application. Same computer on Win2K would run circles around WinME.
They broke stuff frequently and implemented half baked ideas that didn’t really go anywhere.
ME had the same problems as Vista and 8
By their end of life the next product was a good one because of the problems we went through with the half baked one.
ME brought us XP
Vista brought us 7
8 brought us 8.1
I think it was overall a step down from win2k but that was the best software Microsoft has ever shipped.
Milennium:
Windows 1.0: Just four sticks tied together with rough twine, not attached to any building or anything. Just held in the frame of the photograph in mid air by a pair of really hairy hands.
Windows 12: Same as Windows 11, except missing a window on the door all together.
Windows ME: The driver’s side window of a clown car.
Windows 95: Identical to Windows 98.
(There are a lot more like CE, NT, 2000, Server, FLP, RT, Mobile, etc, but I’ll end my list there.)
Also, the photo gives way too much credit to Vista. Also, everything from XP and after should at least have bars on the windows. Having to phone home to activate was always unreasonable. The fact that things are way worse now doesn’t mean earlier versions were unrestrictive by a long shot. (And believe me. People in XP’s era were also horrified at how restrictive and enshittified XP was compared to previous versions.)
Windows 13: The “window” is back in but actually it’s just a 1 way mirror so they can look in but you can’t look out
Windows 95: Identical to Windows 98.
No because it worked most of the time
Vista was excellent if you had a decent machine. It didn’t run on the ancient machine my parents had, but it ran quite fast on the laptop I had. Never experienced a single crash besides the one when it slipped out of my hand.
I didn’t mind Vista at the time, but after I started using Linux Mint, I went back to my old Vista machine and holy god that dim the screen “this needs privileges” pop-up that happened 9 times a nanosecond.
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Vista needs way more glass and bubbles.
In XP, the original Office Word95 assistants were my study buddies for countless hours. This is my homage to them.
Fuck Clippy. He’s a wind chime now.
