• Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    13·
    11 months ago

    Signal isn’t federated [1][2][3.1]; it’s decentralized [1][2][3.2]. Though, for all practical purposes, I would generally argue that it’s centralized.

    References
    1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
      • This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
    2. “Signal (software)”. Wikipedia. Published: 2025-01-06T09:34Z. Accessed: 2025-02-1T09:30Z. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_(software).
      • ¶“Architecture”. ¶“Servers”.

        Signal relies on centralized servers that are maintained by Signal Messenger. In addition to routing Signal’s messages, the servers also facilitate the discovery of contacts who are also registered Signal users and the automatic exchange of users’ public keys. […]

    3. “Reflections: The ecosystem is moving”. moxie0. Signal Blog. Published: 2016-05-10. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:40Z. https://signal.org/blog/the-ecosystem-is-moving/.
      1. ¶5. to ¶“Stuck in time”. ¶3-6

        One of the controversial things we did with Signal early on was to build it as an unfederated service. Nothing about any of the protocols we’ve developed requires centralization; it’s entirely possible to build a federated Signal Protocol-based messenger, but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all. […] [interoperable protocols] [have] taken us pretty far, but it’s undeniable that once you federate your protocol, it becomes very difficult to make changes. And right now, at the application level, things that stand still don’t fare very well in a world where the ecosystem is moving. […] Early on, I thought we’d federate Signal once its velocity had subsided. Now I realize that things will probably never slow down, and if anything the velocity of the entire landscape seems to be steadily increasing.

      2. ¶“Stuck in time”. “Federation and control”. ¶6.

        An open source infrastructure for a centralized network now provides almost the same level of control as federated protocols, without giving up the ability to adapt. If a centralized provider with an open source infrastructure ever makes horrible changes, those that disagree have the software they need to run their own alternative instead. It may not be as beautiful as federation, but at this point it seems that it will have to do.

    • Lazycog@sopuli.xyzEnglish
      5·
      11 months ago

      Yeah. I love Signal but it doesn’t belong in that list. Dansup (creator of loops and pixelfed) is apparently working on “Sup” that will be a decentralized alternative to whatsapp.

        • Lazycog@sopuli.xyzEnglish
          3·
          11 months ago

          Yeah… I’m bit afraid of “kbin Ernest Effect” (not sure what a proper term is) where personal issues pile up and the sole head developer just disappears.

          Haven’t followed dansup much but from what I understand he is much more open to pull requests and listening to the community, but time will tell. Right now I appreciate and love his effort, giving, and the impact on fediverse he is brining.

          The kickstarter was a good idea.

          • ApollosArrow@lemmy.worldEnglish
            1·
            11 months ago

            Given that I’ve waited 3 weeks to join his smaller instance of pixelfed.art, I can tell things are already piling up. I am hoping the kickstarter does help.

        • Lazycog@sopuli.xyzEnglish
          1·
          11 months ago

          There isn’t much information about “Sup”, but if I had to guess it could be that dansup is making sup app with XMPP(rotocol) as the messaging protocol.

          • poVoq@slrpnk.netEnglish
            1·
            11 months ago

            Originally it was supposed to be ActivityPub based, but recently they posted something about it being for XMPP, Matrix and IRC as well 🤷‍♂️ Maybe they decided to fork Pidgin 😂

            IMHO Sup. isn’t going to happen. They will have their hands more than full with Pixelfed’s new popularity and maybe Loops.

      • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        4·
        11 months ago

        My comment wasn’t protesting the use of Signal; it was rather clarifying the misinformation in OP’s post — ie misinformation that Signal is a federated service.

        • apex32@lemmy.worldEnglish
          1·
          11 months ago

          I wish Boost understood the collapsible spoilers.

          On my client, it’s all expanded and I see all the formatting characters. It looks/works great in a browser though.

    • jollyrogue@lemmy.mlEnglish
      1·
      11 months ago

      Yeah, Moxie has openly shot down the idea of adding federation to Signal, and I’ve never heard them claim Signal was decentralized.

      Matrix is federated, distributed, and decentralized.

      XMPP is federated and decentralized.

        • jollyrogue@lemmy.mlEnglish
          1·
          11 months ago

          Matrix servers keep a copy of any remote room an account on the server has joined, and it’s possible to recreate a room from the copies held on different servers. There are more details I don’t remember, but at a high level that’s how it’s distributed.

          Storing messages of remote rooms in addition to local rooms is why people complain about the storage requirements of Matrix servers. They don’t realize it’s distributed.

    • namingthingsiseasy@programming.devEnglish
      1·
      11 months ago

      but I no longer believe that it is possible to build a competitive federated messenger at all.

      The fact that we have a telephone system that works with separate providers contradicts this sentiment. If I want to pick up the phone and talk to my cousin’s puppy in New Zealand, I can do that without creating an account on his provider’s service.

      I don’t understand why we’ve forgotten this as a society. Yes, it was difficult to upgrade the phone systems over the past century, but it’s worth it in my opinion. I really wish we’d start seeing government regulation that says “you should be able to talk to someone on a service without having to create an account on said service.” I thought the DMA would do this, but sadly, Whatsapp still requires an account to talk to people using that service. Very disappointing.

    • amzd@lemmy.worldEnglish
      01·
      11 months ago

      it’s decentralized

      No it’s not. From literally your own comment:

      Signal relies on centralized servers

      For a decentralized messenger use https://delta.chat/

      • Kalcifer@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
        1·
        11 months ago

        it’s decentralized

        No it’s not. From literally your own comment:

        Signal relies on centralized servers

        I was using “decentralized” to mean that there isn’t centralized control over ownership of the service in general — eg anyone can spin up their own server (impractical, imo, pushing it more towards being centralized) and people can use it (making it decentralized, imo (Please correct me if I am wrong, but I do think my usage of the term is appropriate in this way.)), but people who use that server can only communicate with that server (making it not federated). But yes it could still be said to be centralized in that it operates on a client-server model [1].

        This is more an argument of definitions, though. I’m not trying to claim anything in bad faith.

        References
        1. Signal-Server. signalapp. Github. Published: 2025-01-31T15:34:14.000Z. Accessed: 2025-02-01T09:24Z. https://github.com/signalapp/Signal-Server.
          • This is the source code for the server that Signal uses.
    • RandomVideos@programming.devEnglish
      2·
      11 months ago

      A lot of youtubers make a living posting videos.

      They dont have a good enough reason to risk going to a much smaller audience with no ads and no membership system

      They also probably arent knowledgeable enough about computers to switch

    • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1·
      11 months ago

      Hear me out.

      Creators should be hosting peer tubes. And they should host exclusively their own content. Fans of their can subscribe to whatever systems they want to pay and support.

      For creators, it’s a backup for when YouTube the project inevitably fails. For fans as well. But it’s also a backup of their content.

      • Statick@programming.devEnglish
        2·
        11 months ago

        Tech-savvy content creators, sure…

        Your average content creator that wants to make Minecraft videos? Unrealistic.

        I hate the monopoly Youtube has, but all of the federated alternatives have a learning curve the general public isn’t willing to deal with.

        • Natanox@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
          2·
          11 months ago

          Not to mention it lacks any (ethical) monetization options. And the app is absolutely rudimentary, lacking even basic functionality.

          Framasoft made it clear they don’t want to make it a Youtube alternative though, however it could be through plugins. So there’d have to be a company or cooperative using it as a base to build upon, which is actually realistic. Especially European ones; not because Asia wouldn’t be interested in being more independent on the US as well, but because Framasoft is from France and Europe actively works towards this goal anyway with lots of money behind it.

    • Rose@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1·
      11 months ago

      For Mastodon, the people you follow will also need to switch. This is even harder than getting your friends to switch.

      Well I switched from the birdsite to Mastodon because a) I like to shout in the void and b) see what other people are shouting into the void. Doesn’t really ultimately matter who’s doing the shouting. People who go to social media exclusively for news and updates are a bit strange when you really think about it. You’ve got to have the shout in you.

      (I’m only being half facetious here)

    • jonjuan@programming.devEnglish
      0·
      11 months ago

      You also can’t just switch from whatsapp to signal. I have hundreds of contacts on whatsapp that message me constantly there, and 2 on signal.

      • desconectado@ursal.zone
        1·
        11 months ago

        @jonjuan That’s totally true! I tried to use WhatsApp just for work and Telegram for my friends and contacts, but only my wife and mom were talking to me there 😂. However, I think it’s important to keep talking to people about alternatives. That way, we can switch from this “proprietary web” to a free one.

  • Undaunted@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
    3·
    11 months ago

    Unfortunately, the switch from YouTube to PeerTube has not worked for me so far. I can’t find a decent instance (not full of right-wing/conspiracy content) with interesting stuff that also allows me to make an account.

    • FundMECFS@lemmy.blahaj.zoneEnglish
      1·
      11 months ago

      Yes finding the right instance on peertube is a nightmare — and also the general lack of quality content, or subtitling, which makes it as good as useless for deaf people like me.

    • Log in | Sign up@lemmy.worldEnglish
      2·
      11 months ago

      Absolutely, signal isn’t federated, but I don’t want my messaging app to be federated. I want my social media to be federated. Lemmy is good because it’s open. Signal is good because it’s shut.

    • ubergeek@lemmy.todayEnglish
      21·
      11 months ago

      Element/matrix aren’t part of the fediverse, either. It doesn’t speak AP.

      • namingthingsiseasy@programming.devEnglish
        2·
        11 months ago

        Are we claiming now that Activity Pub is the only protocol that we can use for the fediverse? I think XMPP is roughly 30 years old at this point, and I’m pretty sure Activity Pub is much younger than that. I could be wrong though.

        But regardless, I don’t see why Activity Pub has to be the only protocol we accept to be considered a part of the fediverse. It’s not even like different AP implementations talk to each other all that well. My understanding is that Mastodon doesn’t federate that well with Lemmy, and I haven’t seen Loops or Pixelfed on Lemmy yet either.

        I’d be happy to be corrected on any of this though, I haven’t looked too closely into exactly how AP works or how it’s supposed to interoperate with different applications.

      • PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.caEnglish
        1·
        11 months ago

        I’d like to argue that using AP is an inconsistent rule for membership. For example, Diaspora has been considered to be part of the fediverse from early on, but it doesn’t use AP.

        I don’t really know where to draw the line. AP simply isn’t suitable for some applications, but it makes sense to include it for branding

        • ubergeek@lemmy.todayEnglish
          0·
          11 months ago

          I don’t know of anyone who include d*, accepting the tiny number of d* pods that also speak AP.

          I mean, nostr is also NOT part of the fediverse, but another federated and decentralized network.

          • PeriodicallyPedantic@lemmy.caEnglish
            01·
            11 months ago

            Both Wikipedia and fediverse.party consider Diaspora, and a handful of other (mostly defunct) protocols as being part of the fediverse.

            I don’t really like the use of AP to be a qualification of being in the fediverse. There must be a better way to qualify a platform, even if it means that use of AP is a natural consequence.

    • NickwithaC@lemmy.worldEnglish
      2·
      11 months ago

      Don’t worry, your successor isn’t offering anything big. You’ll still be around for many more days to come.

  • breadguyyyyyyyyy@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
    1·
    11 months ago

    I keep seeing this type stuff but neither peertube or friendica are genuine replacements at this point, mastodon is weaksauce compared to akkoma or a misskey fork, and loops is alpha software. also yes signal is centralized but it just works and has contact discovery so it owns matrix and xmpp when compared to whatsapp. basically none of this stuff is truly ready

    • WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      0·
      11 months ago

      matrix too has contact discovery, if you add your phone number (or email). most users don’t, and that tells me something

        • WhyJiffie@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          1·
          10 months ago

          the new app is quite pre-release like still. there is also still no new app for the web (and desktop), or is there?

    • Meldrik@lemmy.wtfEnglish
      0·
      11 months ago

      As software, PeerTube is great and there’s actually plenty of content to consume if you can find it. The more content creators we can get to use PeerTube, the more appealing PeerTube will also become.

      Check this link out, if looking for content: https://peertube.wtf/

      • megrania@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
        1·
        11 months ago

        “If you can find it” … that’s the crucial point I suppose … but without a discovery algorithm, interesting creators, and a VAST content archive, it can hardly be called an “alternative” for YouTube.

        When I was looking into it I found the best use case was to use it as a self-hosted video archive to replace/extend my Vimeo. At least at that point, all instances that were remotely interesting were not taking any users, and the generic ones seemed to be very far away from what I’m doing content-wise.

        And I guess as long as that’s the case, and you have no ways to monetize content nor any significant reach due to the federated fragmentation, I don’t think it’s an interesting software/federated platform for creators …

          • megrania@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
            0·
            11 months ago

            I’m running my own instance, and typically post my stuff on mastodon, so I guess I have made the first step?

            It’s a bit of a Catch-22 I suppose … low numbers of viewers makes it less attractive for creators, and fewer interesting creators make it less attractive for viewers.

            Taking into account the other aspects that make it less attractive for viewers (fragmentation and inconvenience … having to dig through “Find the right instance for you” tutorials, no matter how well curated, can be a bit of a turn-off compared to just going to a central point and find what you’re looking for), I don’t have that much hope that it’ll reach a critical mass of both viewers and creators to catapult Peertube into large-scale relevance … as sad as I am about saying that.

  • teri@discuss.tchncs.deEnglish
    1·
    11 months ago

    I support the cause in general but: Signal is not federated at all. It may seem like a decent alternative to WhatsApp but is it really? It still falls under the same US jurisdiction. Let’s say the US gov starts agressively prosecuting dissidents and certain minorities (they already do): can and should we still use signal in this case? I don’t think so. Sadly i can’t name a much better alternative. Maybe matrix. But it has other issues.

    • Bazoogle@lemmy.worldEnglish
      1·
      11 months ago

      Signal is open source. They absolutely do always comply with US warrants. They have never provided any information to US law enforcement, because they can’t access it. They literally have no way of accessing the information contained inside the texts. The most they could provide is metadata, but they currently aren’t collecting that. I also think if they started, it would not work well for their user base. You can see all their requests for information, and the responses they gave, here: https://signal.org/bigbrother/

    • blackn1ght@feddit.ukEnglish
      2·
      11 months ago

      I think it’s just the colours for the peertube one. I like that it’s three individual play icons to signify the federation aspect, but the colours are just dull.

  • iwasnormalonce@lemm.eeEnglish
    1·
    9 months ago

    Can anyone send me a link to the android version of loops.video, I can’t see it on the play store

    • doctorbllk@programming.devEnglish
      0·
      11 months ago

      It’s also a pretty rough experience tbh. It took about 2 days for me to gain access after signing up. Only usable via the Android sdk or iOS beta app. The infrastructure just isn’t there yet.