You know the problem I have? Women don’t communicate with their partners. It has been my observation that women would rather gossip with their friends about how bad a man is about sex, than communicate with him to make it better.
The behavior I have got out of women about dating and sex seems to be as much of the effort that goes into the whole thing as possible should be transferred to the man.
It’s his job to ask a woman out.
It’s his job to plan the date.
It’s his job to pick her up and drive her to the restaurant/theater/skating rink/gladiatorial arena.
It’s his job to pay for everything.
It’s his job to drive her to his place.
It’s his job to open the car door for her.
It’s his job to carry her body into the house as she goes limp.
It’s his job to undress her.
It’s his job to undress him.
It’s his job to put on a condom.
It’s his job to fuck her.
It’s his job to give her an orgasm.
All of this ideally without any of her active participation or input, because dating, romance and sex are things that are done to women by men, and her job is to absorb it all like a tampon.
I’ve been with chicks that didn’t seem to care if they came, because they weren’t able or willing to articulate what they wanted in bed. If she doesn’t care, why should I? It starts eroding your ability to trust women after awhile. What else won’t you talk to me about? What other problems are brewing that you’re going to explode at me later? What else can I just not take your word for because you won’t just talk to me? If this isn’t what you want, what DO you want, and what is your plan on getting it? What is this sex eventually going to cost me?
Lesbians of Lemmy, are lesbians as useless as straight women?
When it comes to initiating, somewhat. A lot of queer women, would much rather stand around giving hints than making moves, especially ones who primarily have experience with men (and I’ve noticed a tendency for bi women to especially expect lesbians to play all of the masculine roles).
Date planning is a toss up, but ime it’s usually a lot more casual.
We typically both show up at the location or meet at the driver’s home, and honestly I assumed that straight people did the same.
You show up prepared to pay for both of you, usually you pay for yourself, and sometimes one will offer to pay for the other, usually with a response of “you really don’t have to, I’ll get the next one.” (That one’s also one where women who mostly date men sometimes assume you’re taking the masculine role).
Driving really depends on how you got there. And who’s place you go back to is often reliant on a variety of factors, like when I met my wife we went to her place despite her having roommates because she was in the city and my apartment was like an hour out of town.
Once again, had no idea that was an expectation anymore, sounds like some 50s bs
I don’t think my wife or I could physically do that, and if we stayed out too late or one of us got too drunk to get indoors without being carried there’d be an uncomfortable conversation in the morning. Also a lot of the bi women I’ve dated have been of a size that their husbands couldn’t do that.
Undressing is a frantic, seductive, and silly display early on and slowly moves to a causal affair as the relationship matures.
Idk, you usually strap yourself up if you’re going that route. You bring and prepare your own equipment.
Sex is considered mutual or you’re considered a bad lay unless you were upfront about being stone (only wants to give not to receive) or a pillow princess (only wants to receive not to give) beforehand.
Ultimately I think the difference comes down to expectations. In sapphic relationships the expectation is communication and mutuality. Straight relationships have existing roles and it’s very easy to not see what you’re not doing or to think of it as only fair or even worse as adversarial. I’ve long been an advocate to women who date men to take on some of these masculine expectations at the beginning to create a foundation of equality and to weed out men who are uncomfortable with it. Hell, a lot of these expectations you listed are elements of agency and while yes it would be nice to have a no effort on my part but showing up and looking pretty date, it wouldn’t be a good foundation for a relationship.
I will note that I don’t do butch-femme which is more likely to follow traditional gender roles, and I mostly date neurodivergent women who tend to be more insistent on clear communication regardless of orientation.
I’m a straight man, I’ve dated mostly straight women with some allegedly bi women in there. The bi chicks didn’t really behave much different to the straight chicks.
Initiating. I’ve seen women remind themselves and each other not to initiate. Chanting “We attract, not chase” like a mantra. Not initiating, not approaching, not asking out seems to be something women actively and consciously want to do. I’ve had female friends over the years that have said to me “There’s this guy I really like but he won’t ask me out” and I say “You ask him out” and it’s “NO OMG I could never! What if he says no?!” Because rejection is for men.
Date planning. I was once SCREAMED AT for asking a woman where she wanted to eat. A girl I was in a long-term relationship with, who said “I love you” to me, SCREAMED IN MY FACE for having the utter audacity to ask what she was hungry for. Sorry for an attempt to be considerate, I’ll make sure that never happens again.
Transportation. Very early on, there’s the “I don’t want to reveal my home to you in case you’re dangerous” thing at which you’ll meet somewhere, and she’ll always be late because showing up on time is a sign of respect. Women are not bashful about demanding a man has a car, a few of them are bashful about demanding it’s a nice car she can show off to her friends. Most of the time when traveling together, he will drive his car, because it’s his resources being spent. Plus it frees her up to talk on her phone.
Opening doors, especially car doors. Oh for about 20 years it was “HOW DARE YOU open a door for me?! Are you trying to say I’m an invalid? That I can’t open a door because I’m a woman?” So men stopped, and now it’s “What happened to chivalry? I want a man that opens doors for me.” What women want is defined as what men aren’t doing. Start doing it, they’ll stop wanting it.
On carrying her. Somewhat sarcastic here, but straight chicks do seem to like the ending of Officer and a Gentleman. I can lift a person of my own size, but I can’t carry them far in a bridal carry, and women tend not to like being thrown over a shoulder.
On undressing. Most of the women I’ve dated, from many different backgrounds, of a range of ages, would lie down fully clothed and expect to be undressed by me. One told me she liked it. Thing is, ALL of them lay down fully clothed and then want to be stripped, which is difficult to do. We’d walk into the bedroom together, I’d start kissing standing up, she pulls herself out of my arms and lays down in the bed fully clothed. So that I get to lift her ass to pull her pants off, so that I get to lift her back to unhook her bra. Next one that does that is getting cut out of her clothes with paramedic’s shears. And she won’t make a move to undress me, it’s back to initiating. She’s passive, remember? Can’t let on that you want it, can never let your partner know you’re attracted to them. We must act begrudging.
On condoms. There’s a stereotype that men don’t like wearing condoms because they don’t feel as good, that women want men to wear condoms for safety because she bears the brunt of the physical risk. In my experience, women hate condoms. They want NOTHING to do with choosing them and do NOT want to touch them, like a condom fresh from the package is a revolting item. A condom is most comfortably worn and works the best when applied to and worn on a fully erect penis, so ladies, here’s what you do: Make the putting condom on moment as awkward as you can by being really weird about it. That’ll definitely help him want to wear it.
Sex and orgasms. There’s definitely an attitude that between men and women, sex is something that men do to, or extract from, women. Women often express dislike for being on top or the active partner. Some women seem to think sex is lying there and letting him use you. And, most on point to the OP topic, men hear “size doesn’t matter” and then are shamed for having a little dick, we’re told don’t be emasculated by my sex toys then shamed for not making you cum. There’s no truth, only manipulation.
And there it is. Everything is always a man’s fault. I guess women’s strategy is, you can’t be accountable for your actions if you never actually do anything.
Also, if a man wants a woman for sex, he’s shallow. If a woman wants a man for sex, she’s not shallow?
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You know the problem I have? Women don’t communicate with their partners. It has been my observation that women would rather gossip with their friends about how bad a man is about sex, than communicate with him to make it better.
The behavior I have got out of women about dating and sex seems to be as much of the effort that goes into the whole thing as possible should be transferred to the man.
All of this ideally without any of her active participation or input, because dating, romance and sex are things that are done to women by men, and her job is to absorb it all like a tampon.
I’ve been with chicks that didn’t seem to care if they came, because they weren’t able or willing to articulate what they wanted in bed. If she doesn’t care, why should I? It starts eroding your ability to trust women after awhile. What else won’t you talk to me about? What other problems are brewing that you’re going to explode at me later? What else can I just not take your word for because you won’t just talk to me? If this isn’t what you want, what DO you want, and what is your plan on getting it? What is this sex eventually going to cost me?
Lesbians of Lemmy, are lesbians as useless as straight women?
To answer your question:
When it comes to initiating, somewhat. A lot of queer women, would much rather stand around giving hints than making moves, especially ones who primarily have experience with men (and I’ve noticed a tendency for bi women to especially expect lesbians to play all of the masculine roles).
Date planning is a toss up, but ime it’s usually a lot more casual.
We typically both show up at the location or meet at the driver’s home, and honestly I assumed that straight people did the same.
You show up prepared to pay for both of you, usually you pay for yourself, and sometimes one will offer to pay for the other, usually with a response of “you really don’t have to, I’ll get the next one.” (That one’s also one where women who mostly date men sometimes assume you’re taking the masculine role).
Driving really depends on how you got there. And who’s place you go back to is often reliant on a variety of factors, like when I met my wife we went to her place despite her having roommates because she was in the city and my apartment was like an hour out of town.
Once again, had no idea that was an expectation anymore, sounds like some 50s bs
I don’t think my wife or I could physically do that, and if we stayed out too late or one of us got too drunk to get indoors without being carried there’d be an uncomfortable conversation in the morning. Also a lot of the bi women I’ve dated have been of a size that their husbands couldn’t do that.
Undressing is a frantic, seductive, and silly display early on and slowly moves to a causal affair as the relationship matures.
Idk, you usually strap yourself up if you’re going that route. You bring and prepare your own equipment.
Sex is considered mutual or you’re considered a bad lay unless you were upfront about being stone (only wants to give not to receive) or a pillow princess (only wants to receive not to give) beforehand.
Ultimately I think the difference comes down to expectations. In sapphic relationships the expectation is communication and mutuality. Straight relationships have existing roles and it’s very easy to not see what you’re not doing or to think of it as only fair or even worse as adversarial. I’ve long been an advocate to women who date men to take on some of these masculine expectations at the beginning to create a foundation of equality and to weed out men who are uncomfortable with it. Hell, a lot of these expectations you listed are elements of agency and while yes it would be nice to have a no effort on my part but showing up and looking pretty date, it wouldn’t be a good foundation for a relationship.
I will note that I don’t do butch-femme which is more likely to follow traditional gender roles, and I mostly date neurodivergent women who tend to be more insistent on clear communication regardless of orientation.
I’m a straight man, I’ve dated mostly straight women with some allegedly bi women in there. The bi chicks didn’t really behave much different to the straight chicks.
Initiating. I’ve seen women remind themselves and each other not to initiate. Chanting “We attract, not chase” like a mantra. Not initiating, not approaching, not asking out seems to be something women actively and consciously want to do. I’ve had female friends over the years that have said to me “There’s this guy I really like but he won’t ask me out” and I say “You ask him out” and it’s “NO OMG I could never! What if he says no?!” Because rejection is for men.
Date planning. I was once SCREAMED AT for asking a woman where she wanted to eat. A girl I was in a long-term relationship with, who said “I love you” to me, SCREAMED IN MY FACE for having the utter audacity to ask what she was hungry for. Sorry for an attempt to be considerate, I’ll make sure that never happens again.
Transportation. Very early on, there’s the “I don’t want to reveal my home to you in case you’re dangerous” thing at which you’ll meet somewhere, and she’ll always be late because showing up on time is a sign of respect. Women are not bashful about demanding a man has a car, a few of them are bashful about demanding it’s a nice car she can show off to her friends. Most of the time when traveling together, he will drive his car, because it’s his resources being spent. Plus it frees her up to talk on her phone.
Opening doors, especially car doors. Oh for about 20 years it was “HOW DARE YOU open a door for me?! Are you trying to say I’m an invalid? That I can’t open a door because I’m a woman?” So men stopped, and now it’s “What happened to chivalry? I want a man that opens doors for me.” What women want is defined as what men aren’t doing. Start doing it, they’ll stop wanting it.
On carrying her. Somewhat sarcastic here, but straight chicks do seem to like the ending of Officer and a Gentleman. I can lift a person of my own size, but I can’t carry them far in a bridal carry, and women tend not to like being thrown over a shoulder.
On undressing. Most of the women I’ve dated, from many different backgrounds, of a range of ages, would lie down fully clothed and expect to be undressed by me. One told me she liked it. Thing is, ALL of them lay down fully clothed and then want to be stripped, which is difficult to do. We’d walk into the bedroom together, I’d start kissing standing up, she pulls herself out of my arms and lays down in the bed fully clothed. So that I get to lift her ass to pull her pants off, so that I get to lift her back to unhook her bra. Next one that does that is getting cut out of her clothes with paramedic’s shears. And she won’t make a move to undress me, it’s back to initiating. She’s passive, remember? Can’t let on that you want it, can never let your partner know you’re attracted to them. We must act begrudging.
On condoms. There’s a stereotype that men don’t like wearing condoms because they don’t feel as good, that women want men to wear condoms for safety because she bears the brunt of the physical risk. In my experience, women hate condoms. They want NOTHING to do with choosing them and do NOT want to touch them, like a condom fresh from the package is a revolting item. A condom is most comfortably worn and works the best when applied to and worn on a fully erect penis, so ladies, here’s what you do: Make the putting condom on moment as awkward as you can by being really weird about it. That’ll definitely help him want to wear it.
Sex and orgasms. There’s definitely an attitude that between men and women, sex is something that men do to, or extract from, women. Women often express dislike for being on top or the active partner. Some women seem to think sex is lying there and letting him use you. And, most on point to the OP topic, men hear “size doesn’t matter” and then are shamed for having a little dick, we’re told don’t be emasculated by my sex toys then shamed for not making you cum. There’s no truth, only manipulation.
Maybe look for less shallow women?
And there it is. Everything is always a man’s fault. I guess women’s strategy is, you can’t be accountable for your actions if you never actually do anything.
Also, if a man wants a woman for sex, he’s shallow. If a woman wants a man for sex, she’s not shallow?
Not really, there’s plenty women who aren’t materialist and role obsessed. Therefore I’d suggest looking for a different type.
Either that or just visit a prostitute, you get to choose the woman you want and just sex and nothing else.