Tldr at the bottom.
No real names, sorry. I (28M) am a department lead at my job, Jane (25F) is also in a similar position in another department. John (~23M) is in my department working under me. I am his direct supervisor. I am on good terms with John.
A few weeks ago, Jane has been reaching out to me for casual conversation unprompted and will come get me for any work related cross department needs no matter how minor. I can clearly tell she is interested in me as nobody is that persistent with casual conversation or finding ways to interact if they weren’t. She has told me I am her favorite person to work with even though I barely know her.
Jane is cute and also hilarious, I wouldn’t mind dating her and have considered it if we end up being a good match. So far so good anyway.
Bring in my coworker John. John is an interesting character. Funny guy, good heart, openly a furry, Bisexual leans gay, and rascal like personality. John also has depression and sees a therapist. He openly hates his job even to his own coworkers dissatisfaction. We don’t deal with the best of work, but it still gets old hearing it for everyone. John is also easily distracted to the point of causing issues with his work performance.
I like john, he stresses me out at times but I try to be patient as I know he lives a rough life. He will confide in me often about his issues. Most recently he had a episode to where he got so distracted his partner was doing all the work and the partner snapped at him. I had to talk to both of them, one about his yelling even if justified and John with his lack of focus.
My discussion with John turned out alright, he hates his job and wants to leave but appreciates me. The only reason he stays he tells me is because of his interest in Jane. He has apparently asked her out before and she said she would. Don’t think they have yet. They are friends to my knowledge.
Obviously, I don’t want to touch this problem with a 10 ft pole from a job perspective. I like Jane and I am damn well certain she likes me as well from how she interacts with me and I believe that will interfere with John’s life even if I do nothing. John is a good guy that is teetering on the edge of mental stability and I have no desire to not only break his trust in his mind by going to “steal his girl” after he told me about his desire for her, but also push him over the edge.
I don’t think she is giving up either. So what should I do?
Tldr: cowork likes me, I like her, other coworker I am in charge of likes her and has gotten a yes from her when asking her out but no date yet. Coworker has depression and ended up telling me about his desire for her recently. Doing nothing is not an option as she pursues me. He persues her. Me dating her would likely cause him to meltdown. What to do?
I know he lives a rough life.
*ruff life, ftfy, no further comment
To answer your title: don’t shit where you eat.
Jane sounds lovely, and based on what you’ve said, it’s unwise but not wrong to go for her. Dating a coworker is shitting where you eat, but it’s usually mild.
John seems like a good kid, but he needs a conversation about professionalism. He put you in an uncomfortable situation by telling you he’s romantically interested in a coworker who’s been hitting on you. You probably shouldn’t know he’s a furry either. Hell, you shouldn’t know he’s so unhappy he’s looking for other work. He sounds neurodivergent, and that’s cool, but non judgementally, he needs to be aware that that level of openness with coworkers can cost jobs and possibly even risk sexual harassment claims.
Like let’s remove the you and Jane leg here. A generic friend of yours is telling you that he thinks he screwed up, he told his boss that the only reason he’s still working there is because he’s trying to date the head of another department. He’s asked her out, but nothing seems to have come of it, but it’s ok, they’re friends. Somewhere in this conversation he mentions that everyone at work knows about his mental health struggles and that he’s in therapy. How fucked do you tell your friend he is? Because I’ll say this, I’d be terrified that friend is misreading the situation with the woman, she’s afraid to say no (if they were actually friends he wouldn’t need to see her at work to pursue her), and she’s afraid to turn him down directly lest he hurt himself. And barring all that, he’s still given them reasonable cause for firing. That’s not necessarily the situation or even the most likely scenario, but it’s a plausible one.
I’m sympathetic to John. At my first few jobs when I was his age I was far too open about myself and my life. I never hit on coworkers, but otherwise relatable. It fucked me hard, and I really benefited when I learned to create a professional boundary and barriers.
Also, figure out your liability in all reasonable scenarios. Not from strangers on the internet. If John’s advances on Jane are unwelcome are you going to be in trouble for knowing and not reacting.
“He put you in an uncomfortable situation by telling you he’s romantically interested in a coworker who’s been hitting on you. You probably shouldn’t know he’s a furry either.” I was aware he was a furry on his first day with me, he does not hide it whatsoever. It is an open part of his personality that I have just come to accept as it is harmless if not a bit odd. He tends to overshare things so you might be right.
He has taken a strong liking to me for reasons I don’t fully follow other than some of our interests align. I wouldn’t say I discourage it though as I have a discord channel just for our team where people also post memes and things on our off days. I am MUCH friendlier to my staff than your average boss, but I have a strict rule that I will not hang out with any of my coworkers where they cannot all be involved if they wish and I cannot show favoritism. I have only been taken up on that once. I won’t blame him for wanting to trust me with that information, I have been told I look trustworthy or something.
As far as I have seen, she and him are perfectly friendly with each other, now recently working as a team to cause harmless, minor havoc in my life for fun. lol I don’t know the full extent. I do know that they have known each other for a while too and they like to send memes to each other. I just don’t know if the romantic interest is there though. Kind of like having a good friend that is also into you but you don’t share it. I don’t know.
I should clarify, it’s not your fault you know these things, but he needs to learn that enough bosses won’t be understanding that he should learn to curate the aspects of himself that he professionally displays.
Having good and amicable professional relationships is awesome. My coworkers know that I’m into bicycles, they don’t know that the bike shop I volunteered at was explicitly anarchist. They know I’m married, they don’t know I’m polyamorous. He needs to learn to find a level of sharing that can keep him safe, because elsewhere in the thread you mention he’s on the verge of disciplinary action.
You seem to have professional boundaries as well, and I think that yours are totally reasonable. A friend of mine is a manager of software developers and she has similar boundaries to you with her subordinates (she describes her job as basically being a kindergarten teacher for adults), but if you have to discipline John, that closeness will bite back.
And it’s good that they seem to actually be on good terms with each other, though she still may have given him the old pocket veto.
Have a conversation with John, make it clear you aren’t disciplining him, but attempting to help him in his career, because this oversharing is going to fuck him hard someday if he doesn’t get it under control. It’ll be a lot easier of a pill to swallow from a boss he likes and respects than from one who brings in HR on his first week. He should know you’re doing this specifically because you think he’s a good guy and you want what’s best for your subordinates.
For what it’s worth it sounds like you quite like this lady and like nothing you do is going to avoid a mess, so yeah have fun with that. I don’t think John is going to avoid pain here. Both from what you described of that crush and from what you’ve described of him possibly needing a PIP. It sucks, and it really sucks for you. But fr, act like he didn’t tell you about Jane and pretend you forgot. It’s probably the only winning move here even if it sucks. Well, that and posting follow ups. Posting follow ups as things continue is the ultimate winning move.
“He needs to learn to find a level of sharing that can keep him safe, because elsewhere in the thread you mention he’s on the verge of disciplinary action.” Agreed, he overshares way too much and it is going to bite him on the ass at some point.
My closeness with my team is unavoidable and is better I lean into it. We work long shifts and I must interact with them constantly. Managing the children as a kindergarten teacher becomes a lot easier when they like you personally.
“But fr, act like he didn’t tell you about Jane and pretend you forgot. It’s probably the only winning move here even if it sucks.” I don’t that will fly sadly. He has mentioned it twice now.
“Posting follow ups as things continue is the ultimate winning move.” You just want to know how this nonsense plays out, don’t you? lol
Even without john Im a strict don’t shit where you eat person. If I don’t like a person enough to go work somewhere else or vice versa with them then. nope. However I also don’t really make friends at work I make aquantences. I work and head home and by and large keep it all seperate. I have likes some folks at work and could see being hang out friends but you know part of it is being older and married. I just don’t hang out like I did when I was younger.
Definitely a tough situation. I hope things work out well for all of you. I’m also extremely curious about what animal John has for his fursona.
FWIW, I’m not too worried about John’s dating life. The furry community is pretty strong and cross-functional, and there’s a ton of hobby overlap with furries and other hobbies and sports. Especially if he’s bi, there will be others that he will meet, and he’s young. Hopefully his depression gets better.
It is a Sergal and a Protogen. The fact I know without any hesitation for thought is bizarre. lol He is not a bad looking guy, so I am sure he would be fine. Doesn’t make the emotional pain sting any less though.
Threesome!
Joking, obviously. Seriously though, on paper, I’d discuss it with her openly and honestly, say I’m interested, but it might be better if we wait until John moves on, either to a new job, or a new girl. In reality, I’d probably just do nothing, not having the courage to talk to Jane about it.
She doesn’t know that I know he asked her out, I would imagine. Would be kind of awkward to bring up as I haven’t even asked her out yet. lol
“Threesome!” Ah yes, the true answer that I was looking for. I should have seen it from the beginning. Haha
I really don’t see why this isn’t the genuinely obvious beginnings of a polyamorous relationship. It’s not the easiest thing but plenty of people do it.
She doesn’t know that I know he asked her out, I would imagine. Would be kind of awkward to bring up as I haven’t even asked her out yet. lol
Oooohhhh, yeah… that throws a wrench in to it. I will ponder and reply again if anything magical comes to mind (highly unlikely!)
Good luck!
Tbf, I see you as more of the issue than anything.
You’re a leader at work and have gotten way too involved in the personal lives of your coworker and subordinate, regardless of intent.
My advice is to look outside of work for interpersonal and romantic interests. You are already experiencing the consequences of your involvement, and the way you feel about this situation is the signal you should be listening to and taking heed of.
Like you said, I didn’t ask for this information, it was just thrusted upon me. Even if I did nothing whatsoever, the situation would have still existed with or without that knowledge. Not knowing makes it worse to be honest as now I know to not move with reckless abandon.
Looking outside isn’t always an option. Finding the type of person I like is not usually done by looking outside of work unfortunately.
This is not complicated at all. Ask her out and let her choose. Have a polite, but not too close relationship to the guy who is basically your subordinate. If you think he might harm himself, take action, but other than that your not responsible for his wellbeing.
Also, it sounds to me that you are trying to be absolutely fair to this guy, not only in this thread but also at work, but not necessarily like him too much. I’m also pretty certain that she was just polite to him and didn’t want to upset him. Talk with your love interest, than you will know.
If I can’t/won’t see both sides of the coin, am I really a good leader? I wouldn’t think so.
“I’m also pretty certain that she was just polite to him and didn’t want to upset him.” That may be the case and it seems that way if she is still happy to talk to me as she does. I have been on both sides of this and it certainly sucks to be in the other position. I am trying to handle this delicately if I can. It doesn’t help that he is constantly trying to hang out with me.
It’s indeed important to be an understanding boss. And I’ve also been on both sides of this and agree with you that it sucks pretty much.
However: this guy is a bad worker with a bad attitude and clearly states that he has no interest in his job. He does bad enough work to upset his teammates. You’re his boss. Don’t hang out with him. Maybe a beer after work, but even that stretches it. You wanna be his friend and hang out with him outside of work? Then you both should not work directly with each other. There is a time and place for delicacy and sometimes not.
Sorry, I’m a bit harsh! But I had problems with a co-worker myself. And I suffered actually years from constant drama because I was polite and considerate and forgiving. And it would have saved me from so much frustration and stress if I kept my distance in the beginning or just plainly told him to fuck off.
“or just plainly told him to fuck off.” I don’t know man, I feel like that would get me in more trouble. lol
Ultimately, whatever gets the job done with the least amount of feelings hurt is usually the best solution. Sometimes you have to try the carrot before you try the stick. I have gotten pretty far with that alone, but I think the bullshit we deal with is getting to him a bit too much and the rest of it is self inflicted.
I don’t need to be close with any of my staff, but it helps.
So John doesn’t like his job. He also seems to be not performing well. He is vocal about it to the point that it affects others. Are you, as his manager, addressing this issue?
Yes, I was actually addressing it before he told me about his desire for Jane. I try to be friendly and on good terms with all those under me, but I am not friends with them to avoid bias. He just tends to over share a lot.
From a business perspective, I am trying to ensure my team member is performing as best he can.
From a personal perspective, I am actively trying to not have this guy kill himself from pushing too hard. He can’t afford to be fired, he has made that well known. Before you ask, I don’t make pay decisions. He stays because he has to. I and my staff have tolerated some of the complaining, but I will talk to him when he starts going overboard. He is a good guy otherwise.
Do you do the proper business action or do you do the right thing? I am not heartless.
That’s tough, and I hope you can manage it in such a way that it is not a huge detriment to the team. I hope you can also share this burden with your manager because that is a lot.
About the dating situation, I see a lot of downside (potential for messy drama, meltdown of an already vulnerable direct report, HR issues if things go wrong) and just a little upside. I’d keep it professional, and if you like her enough, I’d wait until one of you leaves for another job, and then get her number to keep in touch.
He may move to another shift at another building if he gets a new position he has applied for, so it may resolve itself. Although I can’t be sure of any of that.
This is a horse to water thing. You don’t have control of the outcome, you can only provide John the tools to keep his job. Most managers have a list of folks they tried their best with, but it didn’t work out. I look back on those folks with a great deal of sadness, but it’s about the team. If you told him how to benefit the team and he chooses not to that it’s on him.
If he won’t improve his focus, I might have to cut him. Otherwise he works just fine. You know, you just have to work while at work. Like you said, it is a sad situation.
Complicated.
Is Jane your peer or beneath you in your corporate structure? What level is John compared to Jane and yourself? What are your corporate policies regarding in office partnerships/romance?
Jane is at an equal level as me corporate wise. John is a position below me and technically her although they don’t translate the same way for her department.
Office policies on dating are more relaxed. People from the same departments can and have dated each other with no issues although they generally don’t share it. It is usually an open secret.
Cross department doesn’t seem to be an issue whatsoever.
How realistic is it for you to be able to talk to Jane about it all? Maybe you could get a clearer picture about her (perhaps, lack of) feelings toward John.
Feels kinda silly for him to stay at a job he hates just for someone he hasn’t been on a date with yet…sounds like could be an infatuation situation but im not sure…
definitely juicy though! sorry you’re in the middle of it
edt: phrasing. also, course its not as simple for John as “just leave the job and find another.” surely there are other factors to him staying on board
It is certainly interesting, I will give it that. I have not made it known to Jane of my interest other than having our conversations. I am usually slightly flirty when I talk and I am sure she can see that… As of the moment, I don’t think that would be an appropriate question for her unless I were to ask her out and she agreed to talking about it.
It is a decent thought though I may persue if we get closer.
Ahhh…Well, in that case, I think you should quietly ask her out. I personally don’t think its wrong of you to do that. I’d keep it on the down low, of course. Who knows, maybe one of you gives the other the ick and it turns out to be nothing more than two platonic coworkers hanging out outside of work (I know, unlikely). If it does develop further romantically, at least you’re now out of the love triangle and into a secret romance…which im kinda inclined to think that is better than a perpetually unresolved love triangle. But yeah, its tough. Wishing you good luck!
I mean you don’t necessarily need to ask her out to talk to her about the whole situation, right? Think of it as collaborating together to solve a problem. I feel like in these kinds of situations sometimes just talking to the other person to figure things out helps even from an information perspective, because without talking to them you operate on assumptions about what they are thinking or feeling, and once you do talk to them you know a bit more about what’s going on. It can be scary to bring up though. Also, if it were to turn into a relationship, how you can handle complicated situations like this matters, right? Better to start things off on the right foot with a collaborative discussion on solving a problem.
I’d seriously ask myself if he actually asked her out and she said yes, or if he’s basically trying to preemptively stop anything between you two when he noticed she likes you and guilt tripping you.
Dating coworkers is a mess even without the whole situation though. Confiding your love affairs to your boss is such a red flag though. No one does that.
Confiding your love affairs to your boss is such a red flag though. No one does that.
Disagree. One can have a “boss”, or one can have a “manager.” My entire career I’ve tried to get to know the people around me, my manager, my director, my peers, other random people - everyone I can. I spend a LOT of time with these people, and everything being “professional” 24/7 is draining. We’re all real people, with real lives, real interests, hobbies, etc. - and the happiest I’ve ever been while working is when I was surrounded by people I wouldn’t hesitate to call “friends”, and that includes discussion personal issues often - maybe not quite as much as I would with say, a friend from high school, but close.
Related - I married a ‘girl from work’ many years ago, and the person who was both our manager when we got together, and still my manager when we had the wedding, was one of my groomsmen. I did not know this man before starting that job, but spending more time with him and interacting with him more than my ‘high school friends’, by a LOT, over those four YEARS, meant we easily became at least 80% as close as I was with any of my outside-of-work friends.
Edit: And I actually just remembered, said manager met his wife at work too! They are still happily married unlike my ex and I (who are happily divorced and have the best/healthiest relationship that we’ve ever had now.)
I agree to some extent. I might be more reserved, I just can’t imagine telling anyone I work with I have a crush on a fellow coworker.
I still like joking around with them and I do have more of a manager than a boss as well. I get what you mean.
To be fair I am talking about like, 2000-2010 here lol.
Though I remember having a social outing just a couple years ago at my current job, and I remember my team mate and I’d say pretty good friend (who again, only met through work, but we clicked and connected) telling me after that he was really into this one girl that was there, and then a week or so later updating me that he’d asked her out but she wasn’t interested and he was (obviously) leaving it at that … and he’s quite young, I’d say mid-20s.
I do probably give off the “feel free to talk to me about casual and personal stuff” vibe though as I 100% loathe and reject the whole ‘corporate culture’ bs, and I currently work at the stuffiest most uptight place I’ve EVER worked at, lol.
Also tech industry, so I think we’re generally a lot more casual? No idea! :-)
That is a noteworthy thought. He doesn’t cross me as him knowing or catching her interest when we have all interacted with each other at the same time. Generally when people notice that, they start getting defensive and get somewhat possessive. He was just really happy to share the info like he was gossiping with a good friend.
Well I try to stay away from any work relations personally. It sounds like he’s innocent about it more than anything. People usually don’t share that info specifically because of situations like this. I think it’s fine to go for it if you properly like her. I’d ask her to keep it out of work and keep it as a kind of secret relationship at least for the beginning, but he’ll hate you even more for it when he does find out.
It kind of sounds like he’s got puppy dog love going on. I only know a bit about the situation but I feel like she isn’t going to jump in his arms the moment you back off or something. I definitely wouldn’t feel bad about it.
There’s other things to think about. Are you technically her boss too? That might affect the office gossip.
I am not her boss, we are at a similar level in different departments. I don’t have to interact with her at all if I didn’t want to. If I did date her, the odds of it coming out to him are high. It would just be a matter of when. He would likely notice that she didn’t follow through on their date plans.
I would definitely wait to see how their date goes I guess. Tough situation, good luck!
Question is, will there actually be one? I do not know.
No idea how to deal with this. Keep us updated and good luck
That makes two of us. lol
I’ve done the workplace romance thing several times. Realistically as an adult this is where you are most likely to meet someone, so IMO if you approached with a little bit of caution/maturity and think Jane could do the same I would proceed and just keep it quiet.
Keeping it quiet is my thought as well, I just don’t know how well it would go as he talks to her a lot and they seem to be friends. He has asked her out and she said yes previously. I think he might notice if she changed her mind.
I would let Jane handle her relationship with him, you just do you
You know what my therapist would tell me in this situation? You’re no hero. It’s not your job to save John.
Its not my job to save John, doesn’t mean I won’t feel bad regardless. I do care even if I try not to.
I’m not saying you should be a jerk to him. Just don’t let his dreams drive yours. You can be honorable and also pursue your desires.
Edit: side note… For all you know, John told you about his romantic interests because he was jealous of how Jane was acting towards you.
Personally, I have a no dating at work rule.
Unless you and her end up marrying, there are very few potential positives here and a whole load of almost definite negatives.
It is usually good advice to follow as I have seen it turn messy, but life doesn’t always work out that way. The type of person I would date is usually not found anywhere else. I prefer the heavily introverted types and they don’t tend to do a lot of things out where I might find them. Online dating is just depressing even if you do get matches.
I find it a lot harder to get an ideal partner than a job, so I am willing to gamble for the right person.
Bottom line: do you like your job, your standing at your job, and your friendship with John more or less than the potential of getting with her?
That’s the only real question here, since those things are what you’re risking if it goes bad.
If the juice still sounds worth the squeeze, then you have your answer, but go into it with both eyes open. There will be fallout from somewhere. Don’t bemoan your situation in 6 months when you have to deal with it.
Fair point. I don’t know if this lemon is worth squeezing or not yet. Only time will tell. She may end up dating him or he may leave all together. I don’t know her well enough yet to make that call. If there is anything that makes sense to me right now, its determining if this is a very juicy lemon without cutting it open.
As a manager and somebody who enjoys being able to pay my bills, wouldn’t mess with any of this. I have had subordinates take interest in developing a personal relationship with me. In some cases I share that feeling, but I still tell them as their manager it would not be appropriate to proceed due to the potential impact in the workplace. Quick way to get accused of giving special treatment and moved or terminated. Very hard to hide.
If you and Jane are in an equal level role or one of you is willing to quit or change roles, go for it.
John’s personal problems sound like they are effecting his work performance. If you are his supervisor you are responsible for handling that in some way. If you let too much slide because you feel bad for him, this will go from a problem with John to a problem with you. It is John’s responsibility to manage his personal life and be able to do his job within the expectations of the company. If you are sharing that the expectations aren’t be met in similar ways multiple times, cut the cord.
Regarding your expectation of John taking issue with you and Jane becoming a thing, kinda depends what Jane wants if you ask me. And I’m sure it’s scary how John would react being rejected but again, that’s on John to deal with. I’d just be straight up about it. Sorry man she’s into me and I’m Into her. That’s bad news, but if he can’t handle that in a mature manner that’s on him. He’ll end up quitting or getting terminated for an emotional outburst. It’s sad, but it isn’t your responsibility to control how he responds. Personal problems are personal problems. Generally, managers that are managing lower level managers understand when somebody on the team just doesn’t click or behaves in a way that wasn’t within your control or purview. They have been through the same shit themselves.
Ensure you are operating within the confines of your handbook/guidelines if you want to keep your job. That’s the biggest thing.
Expect this to become an HR issue if John doesn’t immediately quit. I would avoid moving forward with an attempt to terminate John after he identifies the you and Jane situation as that may look retaliatory. Either get HR or another manager involved to ensure John is clearly being terminated for valid reasons and that other people are involved in that decision.
If you want to go the more sinister route (some people do). Terminate John with solid documentation on the performance issues. Negative attitude possibly. Consult your handbook for options, but ultimately you can terminate him and wait on moving forward with Jane until he’s gone.
If you take nothing else from this, consult the handbook. If you want to keep your job all the information is in there. You can get it from HR in the event you don’t already have a copy.
I appreciate the detailed response. I like all my staff even if they have problems. I try to not terminate people unless its just not working. Workplace relationships at my job are looked at in a more relaxed manner. Jane and I are in similar positions but ultimately have no real need to interact with each other. Breaks could be cut cleanly if done correctly. Of course, life is rarely mess free.
John is a good guy that can do his job well, his traumas and other issues are causing problems. I have seen him looking off into the distance with a thousand yard stare more than once. I am aware that John’s problems are his own, but even if I looked at this as a completely selfish way. I would still have a hard time sleeping at night if I was the thing that sent him over the edge. He hasn’t done anything immediately termination worthy, just lapses in attention and complaining. I have yet to let anything serious slide.
My best course of action that I had considered was staying the course and seeing if a relationship is even worth pursuing in the first place before I get involved in that. If it does though, well I guess we will burn that bridge when we get to it. Workplace relationships are tolerated where I work assuming you aren’t working together or are responsible for them in either direction.
