Selfhosted@lemmy.worldbycurbstickle@anarchist.nexus
23 hours

Selfhosted & AI

English

Yup, I’m posting another this week. Sorry.

This week I’m hoping we can wrangle a solution around AI and our selfhosted community. There are plenty of strong opinions (both pro and con), but one thing is for certain - there needs to be better disclosure in promo posts. Two options (that aren’t mutually exclusive):

  • Any posts of an AI focused, AI Developed, etc software gets an [AI] tag. No, a [Not-AI] tag is not needed to accomplish this, thats kind of a “non-golfer” sort of tag.
  • Comment requiring an AI disclosure response to every promo post, if its not detailed in the post itself. Specifics (generating docs for commands, translation, whole-boat vibe-coded this app, etc) would be requested.

I will say that having disclosure and/or tagging would mean that comments that just say “slop” or “fuck ai” or whatever would be off topic at that point, that information is already provided, so its just noise (and sometimes pretty uncivil - I’ve been light on that for now due to the need for a rule on this).

The tag [AI] would make it easy to filter out (or search for, if that’s your thing), but there is a wildly different degree of AI use out there, and from the posts with a positive score, its usually due to responsible AI use (translations, a snippet they had to do something obscure with, available to use with AI but doesn’t require it, whatever), which is why I think the disclosure has a place as a benefit to everyone.

Please provide any input or alternative options on this, and I can then put it to a vote like the last one. Comments seem to be the best approach without involving something off-site, but if you have a better idea/option, please share.

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    • Regular Water@lemmy.eco.brEnglish
      4 hours

      I think tags are a good idea. I would change the tag to [AI / LLM], and maybe some subtags like [chatbot], [image processing], etc. AI is here to stay, or a least until the US realize the hole under their entire economy (Or both in worst case scenerio) , so regulation is a good solution to this. (In my humble opinion)

    • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
      5 hours

      I don’t have a problem with people talking about different open source technologies.

      But I do have a problem with this comm promoting the grift that “AI” exists.

      What exactly is this post about? Chat bots? Image/video processing? Content generation?

      None of this stuff is “AI”. Please don’t label it as such. It’s grifter nonsense.

    • Chaphasilor [he/him]@lemmy.mlEnglish
      10 hours

      Not a fan of a tag, since it’s not transparent enough. Sounds like every minor use of AI would warrant a tag, which seems past the point.

      The disclosure comment I feel works well. People that care about if/how AI was used can check it to get a proper impression of the scale of and workflow for AI usage, and those who don’t care can ignore it.

    • frongt@lemmy.zipEnglish
      15 hours

      I don’t have a problem with AI. I have a problem with vibe-coded apps released as a one-shot and then never maintained or supported. That’s slop.

      I also have a problem with the trace apps (lifttrace, nutritrace, etc.) because while they’re entirely vibe-coded, they are actively developed, but they’re posted here by a brand promotion account that doesn’t otherwise contribute to the community. If there’s any “x% self-ptomotion” threshold, they fail it, because it’s 100% self-promotion.

      I know I also reported another post as slop recently but I don’t remember what it was.

        • dryfter@ani.socialEnglish
          4 hours

          Honest question intended to spark discussion.

          Does this mean that all “single developer” projects can be considered abandonware (that aren’t open source/forkable)?

          Or really “all” non open source software really. Companies “can” die.

          • litchralee@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
            2 hours

            IMO, abandonware means software that is a dead-end upon its very release, with no hopes or plans for anyone to every build upon it. Abandonware is generally not extensible, follows no good design philosophy that would let someone else build it up, and embodies essentially nothing.

            Even a 100-line throwaway Python script has more utility to someone when it is published on PasteBin or whatever. But something like a binary executable released with no source code, with no support, and with no intent by the developer to ever make anything more of it, that’s abandonware.

            • dryfter@ani.socialEnglish
              34 minutes

              Thanks for the definition!

              I’m tracking what you’re saying.

      • curbstickle@anarchist.nexusEnglish
        9 hours

        If there’s any “x% self-ptomotion” threshold, they fail it, because it’s 100% self-promotion.

        Not with f/loss, just account age and they are above the threshold there.

    • brucethemoose@lemmy.worldEnglish
      23 hours

      +1

      Home-AI oriented channels like Reddit’s localllama are filled with self promotion garbage, and more will trickle here over time… I’m not even against self promo or heavy coding assistance, but 9-times-out-of-10, the linked repo is nonsense, or straight-up fraudulent. And being obviously vibe-coded is a common tell.

      Good to get ahead of this.

      Also, +1 on supressing driveby insults. If the post is tagged up front, there’s no need. That being said, it should be okay for users to call out an obvious grift, or a “nonsense repo” that’s actually pure slop.

      • curbstickle_lw@lemmy.worldEnglish
        23 hours

        That being said, it should be okay for users to call out an obvious grift, or a “nonsense repo” that’s actually pure slop.

        Especially if the disclosure is blatantly a lie, absolutely. I’d also say if you see any indicators that they are lying in the disclosure, its still worthy of reporting - but I would say report and separately message the “why”, to limit visibility of seeing those indicators.

      • arran 🇦🇺@aussie.zoneEnglish
        18 hours

        This sounds like a review / gating problem. Getting people to self filter / self gate is never going to work, and if it does it will work probably on the wrong people.

    • EarMaster@lemmy.worldEnglish
      18 hours

      I would still prefer an additional [Non-AI] tag. Even if people are arguing against it - it is not same omitting an [AI] tag and consciously saying “I never used and never will use AI”. And the latter is the thing most users who want the AI-tag are looking for.

      • communism@lemmy.mlEnglish
        10 hours

        Same. It removes the ability to have plausible deniability of “oh I just forgot to tag it”—no, if you tagged it “non-AI” and it was actually vibe-coded, you clearly deliberately and consciously lied.

    • i_stole_ur_taco@lemmy.caEnglish
      22 hours

      I want a community where people can use AI to help build a tool and be able to post about it here. But unfortunately, I’m just not seeing that. The AI-generated apps seem to be coupled to a drive-by, AI generated post (and comment replies) all full of em dashes and the standard Claude slop language.

      So, yes, mandate an AI tag. Hold posters to it and remove violators, because it seems to always be the same class of “contributors” that are cosplaying as software developers.

      Not sure if your rule changes are touching this, but the worst offenders I don’t want to see here are:

      • posting and commenting text written entirely by AI
      • not open sourcing or giving any visibility into their code
      • adopting a paid model

      The people doing that remind me of the people who would approach me 20 years ago saying “hey I have an idea for an app I want you to build and I’ll give you 5% of my company. It’s like Facebook for dogs, but I need you to sign an NDA before I say any more”.

      • terabyterex@lemmy.worldEnglish
        3 hours

        i agree with you. i have been working orofessionally as a software developer for over 27 years. i’ll use ai to help research something but i cant atand low effort full ai projects being posted.

        i always saw non devs using ai to fully generate something for them personally to fix a very custom need but why do these people post projects thry honestly had no hand in.

      • Handles@leminal.spaceEnglish
        12 hours

        I want a community where people can use AI to help build a tool

        Sure, that’s github

        and be able to post about it here

        Fine, but others including myself want that slop as far away from here as possible. Maybe start another community? I suggest calling it c/vibehosted.

        • hirihit640@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
          11 hours

          Fine, but others including myself want that slop as far away from here as possible

          And there are people like me who are fine with moderate AI use and would rather judge the project themselves rather than have them rejected outright.

          Maybe there should be a community poll

          • Handles@leminal.spaceEnglish
            10 hours

            Why a vote to switch up an existing community? The admins have proposed the [AI] tag to mitigate slop projects.

            You said you wanted a community to post vibe coded projects, go ahead and set it up. I don’t see why it needs to be foisted onto c/self hosted, unless you have some vested interest in boosting sloppy mcslopface projects.

            • hirihit640@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
              10 hours

              I’m not sure I understand. First off I’m not the same person as GP. Second, the admins are proposing an AI tag, which I’m supportive of. I’m just saying that I am OK with AI-assisted projects being posted to this community (with the AI tag of course)

      • curbstickle@anarchist.nexusEnglish
        21 hours

        The first bullet is, the other two are covered in the current rule 7 that just went live this week.

        While part of promo, this is just about its own item here. In part because it could be something like “I wrote some of this script, got some ai help to talk to this closed device, here’s what I’m using” which doesn’t really fit promo, but still garners a lot of negative attention and comments.

        I’m a bit hopeful this one would be of slightly broader benefit than just the straight up promo posts (which has a good amount of requirements now to filter out the garbage, though it does put some delays on f/loss projects that are well intentioned).

    • gedaliyah@lemmy.worldEnglish
      17 hours

      Yep. It is a time-suck to see an interesting new project only to check it out and find out it’s AI slop. For some apps, it doesn’t bother me… They may not require the access or stability of critical apps. Other times, I just can’t trust a slop app, and it would be very helpful to know which it is in advance.

    • TheButtonJustSpins@infosec.pubEnglish
      21 hours

      I really is like having the disclosure comment pinned for a more nuanced explanation of what, if any, AI went into a project or post. I think just a tag can’t capture the levels of AI use.

      I’m personally a never-genAI, but, unless we go No AI as a community, I don’t think it makes sense to group all projects that touch AI for documentation with all that use it for testing with all that completely let the AI generate all their code, etc. And I don’t think setting a threshold for which get tagged makes sense either. Basically, a tag is misleading no matter how it’s implemented.

    • rowinxavier@lemmy.worldEnglish
      18 hours

      I think this should be a thing. At the same time, I would also want something similar for funding or platforming fascists, but that is unlikely to end up being done. I think a simple tag, the [AI] one would work, is the best current solution. I think extra detail in the post is a good thing to do, for example AI assisted documentation, AI assisted bug finding, AI assisted vibe coding. They are all different and have different effects on the product and community. If someone uses AI to find bugs in their own code I am all for it, that is a great use if it. If they use AI to write their login system I am not keen at all given the likelihood of intense security issues and the low likelihood that they will ever fix it.

      • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        5 hours

        Promoting the imaginary grift of “AI” is almost the same thing as promoting the fascists who are profiting.

      • curbstickle@anarchist.nexusEnglish
        18 hours

        I would also want something similar for funding or platforming fascists

        Ooh that would be good

        I wonder if there is a database somewhere…

        • mabeledo@lemmy.worldEnglish
          4 hours

          “Open source AI models” are a lie. They all are leftovers from SaaS companies. “Self hosting AI” will not only never be competitive with these companies closed source offerings in any meaningful way, but also, the moment they stop publishing open weight models, there is no chance in hell that new, community driven ones will pose any threat to SaaS products.

    • rnercle@sh.itjust.worksEnglish
      22 hours

      I will say that having disclosure and/or tagging would mean that comments that just say “slop” or “fuck ai” or whatever would be off topic at that point, that information is already provided, so its just noise (and sometimes pretty uncivil - I’ve been light on that for now due to the need for a rule on this).

      good idea

      it won’t solve the “noise” problem though. I was relatively active on [email protected] and we were constantly nagged by sloppies even though the community is clearly dedicated to generativeArt

      • technocrit@lemmy.dbzer0.comEnglish
        5 hours

        it won’t solve the “noise” problem though. I was relatively active on [email protected] and we were constantly nagged by sloppies even though the community is clearly dedicated to generativeArt

        Maybe y’all would get less hate if the sub was called “generativeArt” instead of grifterly claiming to be “AI”.

      • curbstickle@anarchist.nexusEnglish
        22 hours

        No, but with a rule in place like these, its clearly out of place and can be removed. I don’t harbor any delusions about not seeing those sort of comments.

        Would be nice though. And I like being nice.

    • Scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techEnglish
      23 hours

      I like the AI tag idea. I’m someone who has what I’d call a noderate approach to AI, not an AI bro but any means but I’m also okay with some things built with AI if they’re done with care. If others don’t want to see it, fine, then that’s what a tag could be useful with. However the fuck AI/slop comments on something that admits to being AI is annoying to me. (We know it’s AI, they literally said it is).

      If it becomes too much content, then yes would be okay with bi-forcating the community, buy only after it becomes a problem.

      • brucethemoose@lemmy.worldEnglish
        22 hours

        I’m not consistent about it yet, but because of exactly this, I’m trying to differentiate the two when I talk.

        Responsible automation? I use ML or machine learning.

        The grift consuming the world? A Tech Bro? “AI”

        I think one of the saddest things is the conflation between the two, like you can’t even talk about one without invoking the other. Or it opening up that whole ethical debate, when you’re just talking about, like, a 100M transcription model trained by one research in some university on a potato.

        • Scrubbles@poptalk.scrubbles.techEnglish
          3 hours

          Yeah it’s heresy on Lemmy, but I do find it genuinely useful. My only regret is that I have to use Claude/Anthropic more than I’d like, which is why I have a vested interest in selfhosting myself. I’d rather figure out how to run the larger models myself and cut them off completely, but you even begin to mention that here and you’ll get downvoted to hell.

    • TheMightyCat@ani.socialEnglish
      23 hours

      My 2 cents are that the issue is promotion not AI, if people started promoting stuff made without AI that would still be spam.

      From the rules:

      F/LOSS Exception: If your post is about a project that is completely open source & can be self-hosted in full without payment, your post is exempt from the 10% requirement. The exception does not exempt you from the account age requirement.

      I would propose making this the requirement and not an exception, forbid all promotion of closed source, and allow the 10% requirement for open source projects.

      • curbstickle@anarchist.nexusEnglish
        23 hours

        Unfortunately the comments I’ve seen and the reports I get would disagree. Even on older accounts that post and comment plenty.