So as a kid, I was raised on the idea of taking responsibility and accountability for mistakes, actions, and work. I have always been kind of neurotic about making sure all that I do is proper, but I’ve lately been questioning if it’s even worth it.
Being an adult, all I ever see is evasion of responsibility.
Evasion of taxes Evasion of liability in car accidents Evasion of responsibility for mistakes etc.
For example, if you get into a car-wreck, the first thing anyone does is try to pin responsibility and liability on you for injuries and property even if you were in the right.
If something goes wrong, it’s never that person’s fault. If something goes right, it wasn’t just your work.
Idk, it’s a really random thought I had this morning. No one wants to take the blame, I get that, but the idea of evading responsibility is so deeply ingrained in our culture, that insurance companies use AI to auto-reject claims to avoid payouts.
I could go on with this little reflection, but I just find it so hypocritical that I was raised to act responsibly when American society’s MO is the exact opposite in the most fundamental ways.
I think its because of there has been a perversion of responsibility.
Like, it’s super normal for bosses in the US to require you to come to work during incliment weather, and you don’t get paid if you call out, and rent is already barely affordable. Then you hit an icy patch and slide into a BMW.
I wouldn’t feel responsible, for one. I didn’t want to drive in this, but I am because I don’t want to be homeless. It’s my boss’s fault for not paying me enough to miss a day of work, but the court doesn’t agree.
For two, if I accept responsibility, I am now on the hook for all the cost of replacing a BMW, and possibly medical bills. If I’m struggling to pay rent, where is that money going to come from?
Why is it “responsible” to abstain from medical treatment so I can afford to pay for theirs? Why should I have to lose my job because I’m out a car too, but can’t afford a beater because I’ve got to buy them a new BMW? How is it fair to have a lifetime of debt, with no way of repaying it, because I was operating under duress?
Maybe it’s because I’m a pilot, but I think you have responsibility for your driving unless you’re being physically forced to do it. Your boss doesn’t know the conditions outside your house. Your boss doesn’t know the condition of your car
It’s up to you, as operator of the vehicle, to not drive if the conditions are too bad. Final responsibility for safe driving rests with the driver
…Also it would be really nice if people didn’t have to drive. I never have to worry if the subway will be running when it’s snowing. Just saying
If everyone dared to challenge the shitty practices and expectations of their superiors (while actively following through with the reasonable ones), then they’d (the superiors) have no other choice but to accept that the can’t just order whatever, contexts matter and life fluctuates, same as the world, locally and at large.
Unions are the tool towards this. It’s the convenient hammer a worker can wield to dare build a more sensible environment for work.
Anyone going against these superiors alone can rightly expect to get sacked or something to that effect. It’s not okay and shouldn’t be like that, but that’s the unfortunate reality.
Do the same together, and unless they are confident in their capability of replacing everyone efficiently and quickly, somehow eating the time and cost of re-establishing the workflow and the silent knowledge previously shared between the senior workers and the new, etc, they have to bend and listen to reason. And I am pretty confident in saying that there isn’t a workplace that can ever be confident in all that, unless they only ever had a maximum of two workers and a very generic, easily learnt job.
Lesson here is the old and tired union, nobody likes to hear it for whatever reason, but there exists an effective way to fight precisely this. Adapt and wield it. Make things more safe and sane for everyone.
Agreed, unions level the playing field between large businesses and individual workers. If you’re a single employee in a small business (say, less than 10 employees) you have a reasonable chance to negotiate with your employer. As a single employee in a business with hundreds, it’s basically impossible - you have almost no leverage and the employer has too many incentives to not acknowledge your needs.
Unfortunately, union organizations are themselves “big business” and ripe for corruption.
Transparency is the real answer. We should all know and share what our working conditions, benefits, salaries, etc. are. Companies should be up front about what they are offering and how their employees are treated. If you’re applying for work at a place that does 10% layoffs every 3 years, you should be able to easily see that from a reliable source, not just random scattered news stories and ex-employee anecdotes. If your prospective employer has been giving upper management 15% annual raises in total compensation for the past 20 years, while rank and file have been getting 1.5-2%, that should be readily available information.
I was unaware that pilots are underpaid, skip meals to make rent, and could get fired for refusing to fly. If that’s not true, then being a pilot isn’t congruent with my metaphor.
My point is that our hypercapitalist society forces people into poverty then compels them to act dangerously in order to secure the basic necessities of life. In such a system, claiming the individual has sole responsibility is a perversion of responsibility.
I never have to worry if the subway will be running when it’s snowing.
Nice. Over here the bus shows up when it wants to and can’t be relied upon. It only comes by five times a day, and it can be up to half an hour late. I’ve had multiple interviewers tell me that relying on the bus made me ineligible for hire because I’m responsible for transportation.
The fact that society views owning a car as a symbol of responsibility is part of the perversion of responsibility I’m talking about. It’s the same perversion that requires you to go into debt, so you can prove that you’re “responsible” with managing your money. Like, I paid off my student loan debt, so my credit score is now null. If I had to move and find a place to rent, not having a credit score will affect the prices I’m offered. By not maintaining a debt load, I am making my life more difficult, and that is fucked up.
There was an article written in the last few years about how pilots are fired for refusing the fly.
And the company isn’t at fault for incentivizing dangerous behavior?
My brother in Christ, what do you think social media does to our children? Does social media not represent them doing something insane on the Internet for financial gain and notoriety? Are these not the two most cherished qualities in our society? Of course it’s the company’s fault and of course they’re breaking the law. But it doesn’t matter if there’s no enforcement, it doesn’t matter if no one understands or respects the law.
My whole point is that we really can’t blame individuals for being irresponsible when we’ve set up an entire society that punishes responsible behavior and rewards recklessness.
My brother in Christ I gazed upon the social media and turned away! Those individuals can too. Social media is just tapping into those human desires we try to abandon.
I disagree that the responsibly of an accident falls on what other people wanted you to do. What if you had to take someone to hospital and the same accident occurred? Is it the fault of the person that needed to go to hospital? What if you need to rush out to help a family member in distress? Would it be their fault for being in distress?
I think it’s not a good analogy for responsibility. Sometimes car accidents happen and you can’t pin that on “it’s not my fault because I didn’t actually want to go to the place I’m driving”
Okay, lets go with your metaphor here. Your kid has broken their leg and needs to go to the ER. You know that the ambulance company in your area doesn’t take your insurance and just the ride will cost you six months of rent, the treatment will cost money too. It’s raining and your tires are bald. Your kid is screaming and you need to make a decision right now.
What is the responsible thing to do? Anything that goes wrong from this will be your fault.
Well, it was your negligence to have bald tyres, so it would be your fault of you had an accident because of that.
Again, I’m saying this is not a good analogy.
I’m using it as an analogy because OP did.
What is the responsible thing to do in that situation? I’m not asking about fault, I’m asking what the correct choice is. Do you go into debt, or do you drive?
It is a fact that most companies in the US do not consider public transit to be reliable transportation and will refuse to hire you if you don’t own a vehicle. It is also a fact that a minimum wage job doesn’t pay enough to maintain a vehicle. That we don’t have basic worker’s rights, that medical care is outrageously expensive and insurance covering what you need is a gamble.
This is a situation that Americans find themselves in at an alarming rate. Yes, having bald tires makes me at fault for a crash, but we cannot expect people to willingly accept the full responsibility for the failure of the system like OP is asking of them.
This whole convo just solidifies to me that the best way to go is no fault insurance requirements.
so hypocritical that I was raised to act responsibly
Children are also raised to believe that life is fair, and they should not treat others unfairly.
I was in court a few times when I was younger. Nothing too major.
The first time, it really disgusted me seeing person after person get up before me and try to tell the judge how they hadn’t done anything wrong with just transparent horseshit. My turn came up, the cop testified to what happened, the judge asked me for my side, and I just said that it happened the way the cop said. The judge was legitimately a little taken aback.
What the fuck, what am I supposed to say? Maybe it would have been different if it had been big charges or if I had been less naive or something, or if there was some wiggle room in what happened, but I just didn’t see the point in wasting everybody’s time and making myself look stupid and dishonest.
(Note: Do not do this. Court reality is different from everyday life honorable reality. Get a lawyer, don’t say shit, fight to negotiate a better deal and threaten to waste their time and resources making them prove it if they don’t work something out with you. That is what a person will do if they want a good outcome. My priorities were different, I guess, I don’t know. I will say that in this case it didn’t wind up getting me in any more trouble than I would have been anyway. Mostly I’m just telling what happened to me and how I reacted and why.)
(Note: Do not do this. Court reality is different from everyday life honorable reality. Get a lawyer, don’t say shit, fight to negotiate a better deal and threaten to waste their time and resources making them prove it if they don’t work something out with you. That is what a person will do if they want a good outcome. My priorities were different, I guess, I don’t know. I will say that in this case it didn’t wind up getting me in any more trouble than I would have been anyway. Mostly I’m just telling what happened to me and how I reacted and why.)
See, that’s the whole fucking problem: as I’ve gotten older I’ve realized that even if you want to be ethical, systems in society have been designed by sociopaths to exploit that inclination and punish you for it. From a game theory perspective, trying to be a good person in 2025 America has become a losing strategy.
The adversarial court system is one example, but increasingly fucking everything is like that. Tipping at restaurants is a tax on being nice. Deregulated utilities, insurance companies, telecoms, and all sorts of recurring-payment businesses like that form confusopolies to punish customers who don’t threaten to switch to competitors every six months. With digital goods, rentals are misrepresented as sales. There are contracts of adhesion with mandatory binding arbitration clauses everywhere. Everybody tries to screw you at every turn, daring you to go full Karen to fight with them to honor their agreements.
UK is the same. If you have TV Licensing goons show up and let them in and try to explain that you don’t need a TV, they’ll pin something on you. Best thing to do is shut the door in their face.
A while ago there was a guy walking back from his allotment and he got arrested by armed police for his trowel looking like a knife. He was told that he’ll need to wait a while for a solicitor, but could take an interview and be out soon without one. He did that thinking it was best, but they gave him a caution over it (which is basically only given if you make an admission of guilt, but it’s a warning and won’t go to trial, however, it appears on your record). My speculation is, he likely talked to them and tried to explain, and one likely said something like “yes but this could be used as a weapon? If someone attacked you, would you use it to defend yourself? There, you’ve admitted to carrying a weapon”
You can fess up to super minor shit like traffic violations, but yeah, a lawyer’s words should be the only thing a cop or judge hears. And FFS, dress appropriately.
I’ll take this opportunity to stump for legal insurance. $26/mo. gets a lawyer on the phone within the hour and free advice, all the calls I want, among other freebies. An actual court case is 25% off. The difference between the rich and poor is legal representation.
And FFS, dress appropriately.
Random story, I once showed up groomed and in a suit that was sharp enough that the judge thought I was defense counsel (with the defendant not showing up) instead of the defendant, and I had to politely correct him. 😃
Same! I showed up to court in Arkansas for my child custody case and twice court officials asked who I was representing. A Mexican man’s young girl (he didn’t speak English) was begging me for help. God I felt bad, but I was trying to explain I was a defendant myself. :( Why did you make me remember that?!
One time when I was in court for a warrant (unpaid moving violation) and stood and answered roll call, “Thank you Mr. Shalafi for dressing appropriately for my courtroom.” I skated with only paying the fine.
Yeah. The judge in that situation was pretty chill with me as well. I feel like it’s like a lot of human interactions, if you show that you respect the other person’s side of the interaction, they’ll be inclined to do extra for you where they can.
Tell us more about this legal insurance…
Most people (including myself) are cowardly and selfish. If we have the opportunity to avoid responsibilities, especially if no one is watching or if we can “get away with it” … chances are most people would. I’m not saying that all people are selfish … if they are being watched or there are witnesses, many people (I believe the majority) would do the right thing and take responsibility.
Which is why we need a world with checks and balances … we constantly need to watch one another and set to systems where everyone is literally on a stage of sorts. Especially when it comes to politicians and government … if we leave people to do things in the dark without anyone knowing, chances are very high that they will do terrible things.
In a promo for his book, Nico Semsrott asked the audience if they would embezzle funds. Most people voted no. Then he asked if they would embezzle funds if it was guaranteed that nobody would check them. The vote widely swung towards yes.
My life rule is this: Be the person you would respect. If you can live with yourself after taking, or not taking a certain action (good or bad), that’s who you are. Do you respect others that act like that? You have to live with yourself your entire life, no one else has to. And only you get to decide what kind of a person you are.
I’m also very pro accountability.
I once screwed up and got into a minor fender bender. just a pushed in plastic panel on the other guys car, and a scrape on mine. immediately owned up to it and said yeah my bad and got his info and paid him back for it after he got a repair quote
nowadays, I would first judge the person in order to determine how I act. do they look like someone that cares about how their actions affect others? if not, then I’m going to treat them how they probably treat me. leave a shopping cart in the middle of the sidewalk? fuck you. have a giant ass car with LED headlights on pointing directly into a restaurant when you’re not even in the car? fuck you. tailgate the shit out of me for no reason? fuck you. blow a stop sign and nearly run me over in the marked crossing? fuck you. have your shit laid out all over the bus and a bunch of people are getting on? fuck you. standing in the middle of the whatever blocking people from going by and you goddamn well know you’re in the way? fuck you.
my point is that I am only going to bother treating other people well so long as they don’t seem like they don’t treat others well. otherwise, I’m just following the golden rule
You were raised right. What you are describing is the “fundamental attribution error” bias. As an interesting side point, you are doing it with this post right now.
All humans tend to judge others more harshly than we judge ourselves. It is just the way our brains are wired. If it wasn’t that way, then your parents wouldn’t have needed to be so insistent on you being responsible and accountable. The fact is that, it is not a moral failure in itself. Everyone does it spontaneously and it takes a good deal of life experience and maturity to recognize it in oneself and to correct for it.
This is a different point from institutional and cultural patterns that you identify as hypocrisy or irresponsibility. Corporations are not individuals so they can’t have morals. At most they can have ethical codes and people willing to police and enforce them. This is different from individual human morals.
All humans no. Most humans maybe. There are certainly some humans that do quite the opposite, but they are certainly no where near the majority but I think enough that most people will meet them in their life.
What’s the alternative? I don’t see one. Becoming cynical because of what others do and then starting to behave that way yourself is just betraying who you are. I can’t make other people act the way I want, but I can keep living the way I wish others did. At the end of the day, at least I can stand behind my own actions and go to bed knowing I didn’t contribute to everything that’s wrong in the world.
This is the conclusion I reached too in a different context.
I see you’re on feddit.uk, so you might appreciate my experience. Probably TMI so feel free to ignore :) I moved to London from South Africa in my early twenties. South Africans are much friendlier and more open than the Brits, and I was raised to be helpful and kind to strangers, except I wasn’t used to the impact of public transport exposing me to so many strangers, or the difference in how people (mostly men) would interpret my behaviour. I had a large number of bad experiences, the worst one being a man following me off the bus one night, expecting to be invited into my home.
Anyway, 6 months after moving there I realised I was walking with my head down, unsmiling, avoiding all eye contact, and not allowing any conversation with strangers. I was miserable, so I made a conscious choice to be friendlier again but to learn to set clearer personal boundaries. It is much harder to look someone in the eye, recognise them as a person, and then say no in a kind but clear way. I’m still not perfect at it and have undoubtedly given away more money than I should have but I’m much happier with who I am.
Virtue is its own reward, but I understand feeling like an outsider for at least valuing personal responsibility in American society. Stay strong?! 💪😅
Have you ever seen the movie “wall-e”?
The issue with society is people want the freedom to do things without the responsibility of doing it. People want guns but want no responsibility to be properly trained. People want to drive but no responsibility when they crash. People want to do onlyfans with no responsibility for how people view them. People want food and housing but no responsibility to provide that. People want safety but not the responsibility to maintain it. People want to do drugs but not the responsibility of what that does to society. People want immigration but not the responsibility to ensure social cohesion is maintained.
Everyone wants everyone else to be responsible for them while having no responsibility themselves. I guess that’s why socialism appeals to so many a big government to be responsible for everything so u don’t have to be responsible for anything.
That’s not what socialism is about though. It’s about being responsible not just for yourself, but for the society you live in as well. Being all about yourself is nice, but you need other people, you need a functional society around. The responsible and intelligent thing to do is to support the society you live in, to pool finance to be able to afford things you (or most other people) wouldn’t be able to afford. Social solidarity is another level of responsibility.
You are connecting things that aren’t connected, consolidating very different examples into one and same, but that’s neither helpful or productive. Oversimplifying to the point of confusing the very premise is making your point seem like nonsense, even if you have a trace of a valid point in there.
Responsibility does not work like you present it. Nor does freedom. There are different types of responsibility, and different types of freedoms, with a scale for each, not a binary option.
Some of those responsibilities do go hand in hand with your proposed contrasting freedom, but not all. And all of that to a very much varying degree.
So when you ultimately connect it all to socialism, it just comes off as lazy critique against socialism, instead of a point about responsibilities vs. freedoms. Which just makes the entire thing moot, and finally explains the dissonance with the examples given.
Not a great contribution in my opinion. Just explaining my downvote as a general gesture of goodwill.
I feel this is just u rationalising ur downvote to urself. Plus my points don’t need to be good or well justified effective propaganda only cares how many times I say it.
That is what it is also, but doing it adjacent to your original comment, in public, makes it a gesture of goodwill in addition to that. I didn’t have to type it out and post it, but I felt I wanted to explain myself, and chose to do that as a comment and spend some of my time and energy, as a gesture, despite me not having to do that.
But you are also correct in your other point there.
However I didn’t intend to mean your post was propaganda if that was a sarcastic slight against me in that sense, just that I didn’t agree with the argument it tied to at the end, nor all of the examples chosen. But I felt there was an agreeable insight there about people avoiding the balance of responsibility vs. freedom at the start of the post, so I wanted to try and show that there was a valid point there, and explain why I downvoted despite my agreement there, with a genuinely well intended gesture.
Edit: I will admit, I was a little bit annoyed by the ending of your post, so in the moment my original comment did end up being more rude than it had to, for which I am genuinely sorry.
So sure, you can be selfish. But even with a selfish attitude, ignoring responsibilities can have an impact on you. You’re taking a risk, is it worth the potential consequences? Up to you. And yes, you can look at others and see some people get away with shit. But that doesn’t imply you will.
On top of being selfish, you’ll need a large ego to truly believe you will never have serious consequences.
