Hello Linux community.
I’d like to take a moment to explain what I hope will be a simple concept (so really it’s more of a reminder) that everyone should say least know and understand.
Not everyone (myself included) learns best by RTFM. Some of us need a guiding hand or to watch a video instead. It’s not that we’re lazy or don’t like reading, it’s just that it doesn’t work efficiently enough.
I suggest to replace RTFM by WHYTSF : What Have You Tried So Far.
The goal isn’t to blame or guilt trip anyone, rather it’s to genuinely help and for that others need to know… WHYTSF?!
sadly dwarfed by YouTube videos that are outdated as soon as they are produced, and web guides nobody maintains. worse, AI scrapers only know this outdated information and happily hallucinate based on it it is EXHAUSTING having users cheer and celebrate the placebo of all the made up bullshit that does nothing in their config or worse breaks everything in unpredictable ways
I hate it when AI hallucinates an answer but I REALLY hate it when I try to ask a question and some smug know-it-all tells me I just want to be spoon fed the answers and didn’t do any research on my own. Usually if I am to the point of writing a post asking for help I have tried the usual ways of finding answers (at least the ones that work for me - man pages decidedly do not) and I’m at the point where yes, I WOULD like to be just spoon-fed the answer if you know it (or at least a relevant link), thank you very much. More than once I have got REALLY pissed off at a guy like that and then usually I’m the one that gets censored or booted out of the forum, while the know-it-all goes on to find another victim to bully. Oh, and then there are the moderators who censor “low quality” posts (except from their friends and users they like).
So when AI came along, I found it much easier to ask it and try to work through the hallucinations than to deal with that, and I suspect a whole lot of other people felt the same, and that is one reason why sites like Stack Exchange saw participation fall off a cliff. And AI keeps getting better and (so far at least) has never once criticized me for not trying hard enough to find something on my own. I get some people want challenges in their lives, but not everyone does and even those who like to be challenged now and then don’t always want it to be in the same areas of their lives. There are people who enjoy running in marathons but who would hate any friction at all when trying to use their computer.
AI scrapers only know this outdated information
While I have experienced this (quite a lot), it’s much easier to spend five minutes figuring this out with an AI than it is to spend an hour trying to work that out by searching forums for answers.
RTFM makes more sense in a professional context. I don’t expect anybody to read anything unless 1 they want to or 2 they are being paid to
Saying RTFM in a hobby or recreational space is just being an asshole for no good reason
Counterpoint: Aside from disabilities which specifically impact reading, why wouldn’t someone want to read when it comes to their hobbies? A hobby is something one intentionally devotes time to, typically unpaid and nonprofessionally, because they enjoy it and they want to learn more about it. A large amount of my enjoyment is derived from learning more about the things I enjoy, so not wanting to consume that information makes no sense to me.
I can understand, for example, gaming as a hobby and wanting quick answers if one is jumping ship from Windows to Linux. Linux isn’t the hobby there; just a means to an end. I’d still argue the gamer should develop some level of proficiency with their underlying OS. Otherwise it’s like having trail riding as a hobby without any knowledge or tools to patch a tube, tension a chain or tighten a bolt. One might end up in a situation where they can’t just get an instant answer. Investing a little time in the mechanics could keep a short ride from turning into a long trudge out with a bike over the shoulder.
In the context of “Linux”, broadly, as a hobby - what even is that hobby if it isn’t making an honest effort to learn broadly about various tools, the kernel, scripting and programming languages, and so forth? Linux always struck me as a hobby for people who collect hobbies. Or people that have “learning” as a hobby. It’s why, while I’ll probably never work a day of my life in IT, I know how to do some basic SQL queries, hit an API and parse the JSON, do a little scripting in Bash and Python, utilize a load of CLI tooling much more efficiently than any Windows GUI I’ve ever used, and so on. I’ll never know it all but part of the fun is trying anyway.
“It’s not a professional’s job to read the manuals they need to know for their job unless I specifically tell them to” is an interesting take. A really stupid one but interesting non-the-less…
Meh… There have been a whole lot of braindead “pls do it for me” posts going around since the influx of windows refugees.
I’m not one to be a prick about answering questions to help out, and we all start somewhere, but “help me get steam and my LLM working on Kali linux” where ppl get in way over their heads is becoming a real problem. Worse, they will call the linux community toxic for suggesting they need more fundamentals first.
I interpret the post title as a general “try your best, and come to us when you’re stuck”.
RTFM doesn’t have to literally mean to read text, just like saying “let me google that for you” doesn’t have to literally be google. Both statements are similar; the point is instead of burdening others with teaching you something, go learn it on your own whether that be the manual or random Indian tech youtuber.
Sometimes people ask others instead of googling things because it offers an opportunity to socialize. We all know google is an option. I get what you’re saying, but it’s sad to see this described as a burden.
it’s just that it doesn’t work efficiently enough.
Yeah, but we live in a world of limited resources. in particular labor and specifically knowledgeable linux nerds willing to answers questions for free. If everyone will have that mindset there won’t be a lot of time left to answer the difficult questions .
With that said i agree that occasionally if its done its probably no big deal, there is also linux 4 noobs for those who want to ask some questions to help getting started with linux.
RTFM long predates videos in the internet; at this point I’d actually call it inclusive of videos and guides.
I actually get pretty pissed off when the only guide for a feature beyond a couple lines of “here’s what this can do” with no elaboration is just a video. I don’t want a video. I want a damn manual with working examples.
But if its all there is, I’ll watch it before asking questions. The same should go for people who prefer videos, they should at least try the manual first, or looking at some guides or videos.
What’s frustrating for people (generically speaking) is when zero attempt is made in advance of posting questions, and from what I see, is the majority of “RTFM” responses.
Oh I hate how everything is a video. Sometimes I just want text so I can ship to relevant section.
It drives me nuts.
At least provide a transcript somewhere. Thats all I ask.
do you mean man pages? man pages are awesome. man is like the biggest deal command in unix.
“RTFM” (or similar comments like “it’s in the docs”) are just mean and useless without a reference.
Like, okay, superior user in the internet: If it’s in the manual/docs, what page? Do you have a link? Could you quote the relevant section?
Often people ask because they couldn’t find the answer in the docs. Simply pointing them at the answer is infinitely better than “lol the answer is in there somewhere”
See also: “Let me Google that for you…” Like mf Google brought me to this thread!
I agree that “RTFM” can be insensitive, and even mean. However, the place it comes from is genuine. It’s nobodies job to tell you exactly what page to look at. If you’ve dug through the docs and still can’t find your answer, make it explicit that you’ve searched the manual, and perhaps be explicit about parts you don’t quite understand.
The whole “RTFM” thing was born from people asking for help when they obviously hadn’t made a proper try themselves first.
often on linux, you can simply type man <command> and get TFM
i would agree with you on GUI apps, where it can be confusing.
What’s worse, is if this is GNU-ware, there is a good chance the answer IS NOT IN THE MAN PAGE. I think it was bash or maybe gawk. I don’t remember exactly, but I had a question that simply wasn’t answered in each man page. GNU docs are absolute trash, written without any consideration for the audience.
I think GNU favors the info tool, try that if the man page is lacking.
I feel like every time I’ve gone looking for an info page, it was just the man page content, but now I’ve got some useless shit I installed.
I mean, maybe this is a debian thing.
Ι must say that Arch Linux’s wiki pages are easily understood. But man pages are not. I can’t follow the standard manual format. Just like with IKEA instructions, they just don’t make sense to me. My brain is like that. But Arch Linux pages are good.
there’s a standardized man format? News to me. I thought developers just threw everything in at random order.
I know It’ll be a controversial take on here; but while I don’t like the use of AI for most things, I’ve found LLMs to be immensely valuable when it comes to learning how to Linux, and as an extension, how to self host.
I understand the limitations, but it’s so much more straightforward to tell an LLM what I’m trying to achieve then follow those instructions, than it is to try and poke about from site to site trying to piece together the information. Particularly if you don’t know what it is you need to search for in the first place.
Obviously you have to exercise some caution, but it makes so much more sense to me to confirm instructions provided by an LLM than it is to try and figure out where to even start. And let’s be honest, not all forum users are as forgiving to complete noobs.
The problem with using an LLM for information is that you can ask chatgpt:
"please provide me with 3 different interpretations of the main function of the Linux command ‘ls’
and you’ll get what you ask for. An llm is an inappropriate tool to lookup accurate information.
I can’t count the number of times I swear I read every man page and I can’t figure out how to structure my arguments–especially when they are nested or conditional.
I especially wish more man pages had common examples. Sometimes an example can say more than a paragraph of explanation.
I especially wish more man pages had common examples.
A thousand times this. It’s all well and good telling us what each option does, but if we don’t know how to form the command around the various arguments and paths, then it’s all fairly useless.
I can relate : I’m a noon. I often don’t understand the manual, so I look for forum posts that are clearer/ easier to follow/more directly related to my problem and most of the time I find some.
What manual? What part of the manual? What if something happens that the manual didn’t cover? What if the manual is out of date or wrong? What if the maintainer of the manual made a mistake?
RTFM works for uncomplicated things and/or is a good starting place but is largely an unproductive thing to say these days in my opinion
If it’s a more complex subject matter i can understand people asking questions, because in those cases the documentation can also be more difficult to understand. I’ve asked questions in those situations myself as well, and a video of someone walking you through it can be very helpful. When someone asks the most basic questions ever i tend to be more on the RTFM side of things though. If you ask a question that literally has like a oneliner answer in the manual it seems to me like you didn’t put in that much effort before posting. I never actually RTFM’d someone though. I either answer anyway if i feel generous, or i just ignore it lol.
It’s a skill like any other. When you need to look up something, make yourself at least try tldr, man, etc. first. Over time you will find yourself skimming through man pages to find what you need faster than looking up a video.
